iwillgonow: "now tell me how"
jello13091: let me faint!
iwillgonow: i almost did
jello13091: how the lunar and solar work together?
iwillgonow: yeah
iwillgonow: how does the vernal equinox andthe newmoon give us a basis for startingthe year that helps the lunar/solarstuff work together?
iwillgonow: i think.
iwillgonow: and i seriously detest this space bar
jello13091: Wait what is the exact question?
iwillgonow: the one i just said
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: "and in answering this question we're going to answer theoriginalquestion which is going to answerthefirst question."
jello13091: what was the original question?
iwillgonow: original question was his 'why did we begin, using what, why' question
iwillgonow: and the first question ishow to keep sabbaths in theirproper time/season
jello13091: my head is so full and i have no idea what to say
jello13091: my dinner is going to be ready in 6 minutes, should we wait and take an eating break? or try to start this right now?
iwillgonow: i think we're really close.. so i'd like totry toget as far as we can now
jello13091: ok, go ahead and start whatever off if you like
jello13091: I dont know where to begin
iwillgonow: we're not really starting anything yet, we're just tryingto finish thatlast question
jello13091: well, start the answer
iwillgonow: how do the two things make the lunar/solar stuff wok together?
jello13091: the new moon works with the lunar stuff
iwillgonow: it ... makes them relative to each other instead of something else, maybe
iwillgonow: i dunno
jello13091: the lunar and the solar are compromising
jello13091: the lunar year starts at a close point with the solar year.
iwillgonow: "i can answer this question in 4 words" why do i suddenly think of 'name that tune'?
jello13091: They had to compromise
iwillgonow: yeah, because there can't be two different beginnings
iwillgonow: but how did they compromise...
jello13091: the year starts at the new moon closest to the vernal equinox. the solar year starts somehow with the lunar year.
jello13091: we can't start the solar and lunar year at two different times
jello13091: so we need to start them together
iwillgonow: ya, we've already said that...
iwillgonow: Julie, answer the word HOW.
jello13091: yeah, i know, just thinking out loud to try to add something on
iwillgonow: Don't state the facts for the umpteenth time, answer the question HOW.
jello13091: stating them helps me
iwillgonow: yeah, talk over here so we can keep it all on one screen
jello13091: how lunar and solar work together.....HOW HOW HOW
iwillgonow: how do the equinox and new moon make them work together
jello13091: well with the new moon, it would make them work by causing us to go with the lunar year, beginning with no moon appearing. The vernal equinox...day and night are equal, beginning......i don't know how solar stuff fits in
iwillgonow: the equinox is the beginning of the spring, beginning of the logical first season. the new moonn is the beginning of the lunar year...
jello13091: that is what is stumping me
jello13091: and like I mentioned earlier , you cant have the beginning of spring in march and then bust out with a so called lunar year beginning in sept.
iwillgonow: jacob wants me to correct what i said...... A new moon must begin a lunar year. nothing else can begin a lunar year..
iwillgonow: so the grand COMPROMISE here is that ..... in orderto try and make the lunar year andthe 4 seasons coincide, we take the new moon closest to the equinox which ...
jello13091: begins the lunar year
iwillgonow: shouldnt that prevent the lunar and solar stuff from having problems tho?
jello13091: no, or else we wouldn't have a problem
iwillgonow: i think i'm being redundand, but oh well.. we take the new moon closest to the equinox. which in my mind should ..... yeah, i know, but isnt itjust like jacob to make us work for hours when there isnt actually a problem?
jello13091: yeah really
iwillgonow: altho he says thereis a problem
iwillgonow: even if it is the closest day, its not the same day, so we do still have a problem...
jello13091: where is the problem because earlier, we saw that it wasn't in the tilt because it would barely change
iwillgonow: ok, my "so the grand compromise...." sentence up there is what jacob is focusing on now
iwillgonow: he wants that sentence finished. "...we take the new moon closest tothe equinox, which DOES WHAT?"
jello13091: which makes the year start at the beginning of spring/rebirth
jello13091: which makes the two things work together
iwillgonow: "no, if the lunar year startedat thebeginningof spring, it would start onthe sameday. how? HOW does itmake them worktogether?"
jello13091: i just don't know
iwillgonow: i dont know either
jello13091: brb
iwillgonow: k
jello13091: back
iwillgonow: take the new moon closest to the equinox..... compromise...... thats compromising on the two different beginnings, whiich does SOMETHING that we obviously can't put our finger on yet
iwillgonow: we're trying toanswer the questions "why did we begin theyear the way we did,what did we use and why..." and "how do we keep the sabbathsin their proper seasons/times".
jello13091: "...we take the new moon closest to the equinox, which..." causes us to not start in the middle of a year or season, wait, wouldn't taking the new moon closest either give us more or less time in case the solar and lunar stuff are off
jello13091: ?
jello13091: then what if we got like a couple extra days for them to get back insync
iwillgonow: "more or less time for what?"
jello13091: more or less time to get the seasons and years complete
jello13091: to finish the full cycle
iwillgonow: You're ahead of yourself.
iwillgonow: Answer these first.
jello13091: I htought i was, how am i ahead?
iwillgonow: Take the new moon closest to the equinox, which...
iwillgonow: Does what?
iwillgonow: What does that do?
jello13091: gives us leeway time
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: It ________ the ________.
iwillgonow: That's the four letter answer.
jello13091: causes us to start at a beginning and not the end or middle
iwillgonow: *word
jello13091: helps?
jello13091: works?
jello13091: more hints
iwillgonow: he's not giving any
jello13091: i've got to get energy in my body
jello13091: Jacob, we don';t know
jello13091: how do we figure this out???
iwillgonow: "think about the problem," he says...
jello13091: we've been thinking about it for the past 5 hours
iwillgonow: "take the new moon closest to the equinox, what does it do? think about the problem.."
iwillgonow: what does it do in reference to the problem.....
jello13091: when we take the new moon closest to the vernal equinox, it allows for a compromise to be made. it gives us more or less time to make it equal
iwillgonow: "how are we going to make it equal? what are you talking about?"
jello13091: what are we trying to make equal
jello13091: lets start there
jello13091: and then lets figure out what equals what
iwillgonow: i'd love to see what you're saying, butjacob is in the way...
iwillgonow: the equal thing wasinresponse to what you said... i'm not sure whatu were talking about
jello13091: WHat are we trying to make eqyal
iwillgonow: "we take the new moon closest to the equinox, which ____ the ____." <== i dont know, but thats the statement we're trying to work ont
iwillgonow: on*
jello13091: which compliments the lunar and solar calendars
iwillgonow: wha..?
jello13091: dont know
iwillgonow: nor do i
jello13091: which makes everything work together
jello13091: what are we missing
jello13091: i think it's time for a hint!
iwillgonow: Which optimizes the ____.
iwillgonow: year, date, seasons, what could go in that blank?
jello13091: time
jello13091: or the length
iwillgonow: explain
jello13091: oh no!
jello13091: k let me think
jello13091: it's like what i said earlier, it helps out with the length, because we can afford to be a couple days off
iwillgonow: so you're saying that like... if this year ended up 5 days short, but next year had 5 extra days, it would all even itself out in the end, right?
jello13091: what does optimize mean>
jello13091: no.
iwillgonow: optimize = to get the full effect of something
jello13091: I don;t know how to explain it
iwillgonow: Julie, you said the word "Time," what does it do to time?
jello13091: i've already screammed 10 times over
iwillgonow: JULIE WHAT DOES IT DO TO TIME?
jello13091: oh i thought we were going with length'
jello13091: it equals time
iwillgonow: ...........................................................................................................................
jello13091: creates time
iwillgonow: Optimizes, maybe?
jello13091: causes time
jello13091: optimizes time
jello13091: helps time
jello13091: allows time
iwillgonow: OPtimzes was it.
iwillgonow: Genius.
jello13091: oh
iwillgonow: What does it do when you take the new moon cloest to the vernal equinox?
jello13091: it optimizes time
iwillgonow: It optimizes the gap.
iwillgonow: All this time for that.
iwillgonow: Now answer the two questions.
jello13091: ......i said that before....it makes up for any difference that could occur
iwillgonow: "it doesnt make up for the difference"
jello13091: what are the two qeustion??!?! and when we answer then, we're moving on
iwillgonow: question 1 = why did we begin the year when we did, using what and why
iwillgonow: q2 =how do we observe the sabbaths in their proper time/season
iwillgonow: we began the year when we did because we used the vernal equinox and the closest new moon to determine a time to start the year that would optimize the gap between the 2 beginnings.
jello13091: i dont know how to answer these.....and i know we just went over everything
iwillgonow: ok, he said yes to that onhe
jello13091: good
iwillgonow: one*
iwillgonow: and he wants u to answer the2nd one
jello13091: great.....
iwillgonow: You were warned and you knew you'd have to reiterrate these points.
iwillgonow: Answer the question you have be asked.
jello13091: ok let me think
jello13091: i thought all the stuff we covered only answered the first quiestion
iwillgonow: thats whati thought too
iwillgonow: It's a two word answer.
iwillgonow: A very simple idea.
jello13091: optimize length
jello13091: compromise
iwillgonow: Compromise is one word.
iwillgonow: We ________.
jello13091: i know
jello13091: study
jello13091: we see
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: No.
jello13091: we leasrn
iwillgonow: No.
jello13091: we deduct
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: I already said it and STILL you can't answer me with what I just said.
iwillgonow: We o_______.
jello13091: ptimize
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: How?
jello13091: i said that before
iwillgonow: How?
iwillgonow: No you didn
iwillgonow: 't.
iwillgonow: I SAID HOW.
iwillgonow: HELLO?
jello13091: it optimizes the gap
iwillgonow: We optimize by optimzing the gap?
iwillgonow: Here's the answer, since you don't know it, which means you do, in a way.
iwillgonow: I dunno.
jello13091: compromise
iwillgonow: Nope.
jello13091: we optimize by compromising
iwillgonow: The Jews added a month to make up for the days.
iwillgonow: The Christians said forget it.
iwillgonow: So what do we do to count for those in between days?
iwillgonow: We've optimized, but that isn't perfect.
jello13091: we make up for them
iwillgonow: how?
iwillgonow: Like the Jews?
iwillgonow: Add a month to the year whenever we feel like it?
jello13091: we make it up by starting on the new moon closest to the vernal equinox.
iwillgonow: Or just let those days not exist like the Christians?
iwillgonow: THAT IS NOT PERFECT, THAT'S JUST AS CLOSE AS WE CAN GET.
iwillgonow: THERE ARE STILL DAYS LEFT IN BETWEEN UNACCOUNTED FOR.
jello13091: of course, he hides that till the end
iwillgonow: Julie, the answer is you don't know the answer, and neither do I.
iwillgonow: Without a perfect harmony, to do anything that would "fix it" would be altering the year or adding a month or changing dates arbitrarily.
iwillgonow: It's NOT ok to NOT know something you've already been taught extensively!!!!!!
jello13091: i knew that i didnt know it!
iwillgonow: You get the difference?
iwillgonow: Do you get the difference?
iwillgonow: I said do you get the difference?
iwillgonow: yes or no?
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: Good.
iwillgonow: "I knew I didn't know..." you are wrong wrong wrong.
jello13091: ummm ok
iwillgonow: Alright, we're done with this, and ready to start with the new point in question, so go eat.
iwillgonow: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalright
iwillgonow: Next problem.
jello13091: no, no more problems
jello13091: no more tonight at least
iwillgonow: No problem? GREAT! 
Let's get started.
jello13091: NO!!!!!!!!!!!! 
jello13091: not work out more problems, just study other stuff or something
iwillgonow: Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike?
jello13091: i doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon't knoooooooooooooooooooooo
jello13091: w
iwillgonow: Oh well, onto the problem then...
jello13091: give us the problem abd then we'll see....
jello13091: what happened to doing to calendar?
iwillgonow: Tell me how to make the lunar year and four seasons stay cool.
jello13091: no, no more with seaosn tonight
iwillgonow: That is the problem, and the next step in doing the calendar, as is everything we've done today.
iwillgonow: Preparation.
jello13091: the lunar year and the 4 seasons work because God lets them work
iwillgonow: Jennifer thinks it's not fair for you to figure this out.
iwillgonow: because his mom just told usthe answer
jello13091: oh, that really isn't fair
iwillgonow: Just like I did.
iwillgonow: I don't accept her answer until I REASON it through.
iwillgonow: Jennfier just wants it to be easy for you.
jello13091: I want it to be easy also.
jello13091: Ok
jello13091: please tell me the answer
iwillgonow: If my mom is right, so are you, sort of. God has it worked out so that there's a 13th month every so often
iwillgonow: and then it all takescare ofitself
iwillgonow: thats what weneed to studyout, tho, to see ifthe 13th month fixes things
jello13091: that is really heavy, can we save that for another time'
jello13091: ?
jello13091: Please?
jello13091: CAn't we make a calendar and then that will lead to seeing about a 13th month
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: My mom's idea is NOT an intercalary month like the Jewish calendar, keep that in mind.
jello13091: SO what is it like then?
jello13091: my head hurts
iwillgonow: It is simply a continuation of the year, from 12 to 13, IF and ONLY if the new moon requires that the difference of days between it and the vernal equinox is substantial enough.
iwillgonow: NOT a double-Adar or something.
jello13091: which means it would have to take a couple of years to build up to that point.
iwillgonow: With is purely subjective and chosen based on who knows what.
iwillgonow: Perhaps.
iwillgonow: But I don't think so.
jello13091: Maybe that's something we're not supposed to know.
iwillgonow: NOPE, you're wrong.
iwillgonow: If we can't figure it out, we can't keep any of the Sabbaths at their appointed times.
jello13091: ok
jello13091: please, can we really save this for another time?
iwillgonow: And do what instead?
jello13091: i dont know
iwillgonow: Oh well then, onto the next step in the Calendar process...
jello13091: Jen, you have any ideas?
iwillgonow: nope
jello13091: there are plenty of things we can study
jello13091: study parts of the Bible
iwillgonow: Study what?
iwillgonow: Study what?
jello13091: the contradictions
jello13091: study ANY PART of it
iwillgonow: We're at a stalemate on that 700/7000 one
jello13091: and that means we can't move on to another one?
iwillgonow: Do you have them with you?
iwillgonow: I don't.
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: Jennifer has some.
iwillgonow: The first three pages.
jello13091: Jacob, we made copies for you
iwillgonow: Which we've answered.
jello13091: you should have the same as her
iwillgonow: I gave my copies away.
jello13091: TO WHO???
iwillgonow: To my mom.
jello13091: wait, i dont want to do this cause i dont have that bible program
iwillgonow: D/l it.
jello13091: give it like 2 weeks, and then i should be back on my computer with all my stuff on it
iwillgonow: THEN WE ARE BACK TO THE CALENDAR PROCESS, HUH?
jello13091: i almost need the blueletterbible website which will run way too slow
jello13091: ok Jacob, how do we make the lunar year and the four seasons work?
iwillgonow: Supposedly, if a 13th month is needed at the end, then just have it until the new moon closest to the vernal equinox comes, and then make month number one again.
iwillgonow: Which means that 13th month may be only a few days.
iwillgonow: no, i think he's wrong there,hang on
jello13091: of course he would be after i wrtie it down
iwillgonow: heh, sorry, he didnt give me the keyboard soon enough
jello13091: So what is right then?
iwillgonow: seems to me that a month is a month is a month. you cant have a month thats only a few days, because a "month" is a moon phase... right?
iwillgonow: new moon to new moon,
jello13091: Yeah
jello13091: i dont see how adding a month with only a few days is any different from what the Jews did.
iwillgonow: lemme see if i can explain it the way i understood it, while jacob tries to figure out what in the world he's talking about
iwillgonow: a year has to have at least 12 months
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: so we have 12 full months
iwillgonow: the month after the 12th can either be a 13th month, or the first month of the next year
jello13091: with a set number of days in each?
iwillgonow: depends on the length of the moons phases
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: if in that next month the equinox occurs on the 2nd day, its obviously closest to the end of the previous month, so thatmonth would begin the next year
iwillgonow: BUT
iwillgonow: if the equinox didnt occur til the 20th day, it'd be closer to the end of that month,so the closest new moon wouldnt be til the end of that month.... which would mean the new year couldnt start until the end of that month, making it a 13thmonth
iwillgonow: make sense?
jello13091: ummm
iwillgonow: his mom drew us a picture... : \
jello13091: wouldnt it make it the first month
jello13091: ?
jello13091: yall will just have to snail mail me a copy
iwillgonow: if the equinox is closerto the end of the month, then its closest to the newmoon after it, instead of the one before it....so the one after it would start the new year
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: make sense now?
jello13091: kind of
jello13091: oh yeah it does
iwillgonow: i dont think jacobthinks i'm right tho...what part could i better explain?
iwillgonow: ok
jello13091: so now what?
iwillgonow: jacob has research that says a lunar year (12 new moons) is approx 354 days, while a solar year is approx 365 days... so there has to be an extra month added in to keep the sabbaths from falling behind by approx 11 more days every year.....
iwillgonow: which would bring them out of their season.... passover would end up happening in winter, then fall,then eventually summer and back to spring...
jello13091: hmmmmmmm
iwillgonow: lunar months are generally 29.5 days
jello13091: I have alot of month stuff....that was one of the first things i worked on
iwillgonow: in a cycle of 19 years, if 7 months are added, the holy days will remain in their proper seasons
iwillgonow: thus,every 2 or 3 years in the 19 year cycle,there must be an added 13th month
jello13091: so could that be it then?
iwillgonow: (im writing what he's reading from his research)
iwillgonow: at the end of ever 19 years, earth,moon, and sun will come into almost exact conjunction
jello13091: tell him to just type a mini paper for me
iwillgonow: once every 19 years, therewill be a new moon on the equinox
iwillgonow: so in 19 years, there will be 12 regular years,and 7 13- month years
jello13091: well where are we at now?
iwillgonow: dunno yet
iwillgonow: he pulled all this from biblestudy.og
jello13091: There is a month called Elul that has no definite month number
iwillgonow: org
jello13091: He typed what i just said on a sheet once
jello13091: 1st Month-Abib, Nisan
jello13091: 2nd- Zif
jello13091: 3rd-Sivan
jello13091: 4th- no name
jello13091: 5th-no name
jello13091: 6th- no name
jello13091: 7th- Ethanim
iwillgonow: idunno... he just said in response to you that elul must not be for orthodox jews,cuz what he has now says that the 13th month is adar 2
jello13091: 8th- Bul
jello13091: JACOB, YOU GAVE ME THE SHEETS I'MLOOKING OFF OF
jello13091: 9th- Chisleu
jello13091: 10th- Tebeth
jello13091: 11th- Sebat
jello13091: 12th- Adar
jello13091: Elul has no number by it
iwillgonow: he just realized thathe gave that sheet to u
jello13091: And it could be the 4-6th month, yet Elul is found in Nehemiah and nothing in 4-6 is mmentioned in that
iwillgonow: and elul could be one of the months with no names..... yeah
iwillgonow: hmm
jello13091: I have right here all the proof of what the Jews believe and how it's wrong
jello13091: point of departure from the biblical clendaar is in Dueteronomy 16:1 (passover in the month of Aviv )
jello13091: i got all this from a jewish book that i wish i had with me right now
jello13091: jewish authorities added months
jello13091: it said that the jewish calendr is lunr-solar because some festivls must occur in the right time of year (harvesting in spring, etc.)
jello13091: lunar=354, solar=365 -> rabbis combined them
iwillgonow: ya, he's reading more right now about them addingdays to keep certain days from falling where they didnt want them to.....
jello13091: they adopted intercalation-harmonization of the solar nd lunar calendars
jello13091: brb
jello13091: back
iwillgonow: wb
jello13091: what exactly is he doing now?
jello13091: man i'm getting tired of typing
iwillgonow: now he's got something that says pentecost is always on a monday
jello13091: oh no
iwillgonow: i think its talking about ... hang on
jello13091: k
iwillgonow: there's some 6.5 minute difference somwhere thatover some 2000+ year period, will make pentecost on a monday..???
jello13091: 
iwillgonow: i think its not true... they want u to go findsome book about it to figure it out
iwillgonow: i think we already have biblical proofthat itson a sunday
jello13091: he said biblestudy.org. had problems with a couple of things before
jello13091: ok good then
iwillgonow: we counted this out about 10 times last week, didntwe?
iwillgonow: 7 sabbaths from the day after, and one moreday.....or whatever it said..... is always going tobe a sunday\
jello13091: yeah
06/09/01
iwillgonow: The Roman Calendar has not disrupted the weekly cycle instituted since creation. The Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), is made for man, Mark 2:27-28 to be a sign that He is our Mighty One and we are His people, Exodus 31:13-17. It is a type of the millennial rest of the Kingdom of God on this earth, Hebrews 4:1-11. We are to abstain from gainful employment during the Sabbath. Prior to the Sabbath we are to have our house in order, with heavy baking and meal preparation done as much as possible in advance. In this way, the Sabbath is a delight for the entire family, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13-14. As a holy time for physical rest, spiritual fellowship and extra Bible study and prayer, the Sabbath should be the crowning point of the week for every true believer.
iwillgonow: So if you're going to have a feast, what day should it be made on?
psycho314t: not on the sabbath
iwillgonow: Why?
psycho314t: It is a type of the millennial rest of the Kingdom of God on this earth, Hebrews 4:1-11. <= and does that suggest that God is on a 7000 year clock?
jello13091: So that you avoid heavy cooking.
psycho314t: b/c it requires preparation that shouldnt be done on the sabbath
iwillgonow: Preparation should be done on the ____ day.
psycho314t: oh.. you can prepare the day before, and feast on the sabbath?
iwillgonow: The day of ____.
psycho314t: preparation
iwillgonow: Yup.
iwillgonow: Which is what day?
jello13091: thursday or Friday morning?
iwillgonow: The 6th day of the week.
jello13091: friday
iwillgonow: Christmas, Easter, Valentine's Day, etc. are poor pagan-derived substitutes for the Creator's annual Sabbaths (Holy Days) and Feasts. We are to shun false worship, Deuteronomy 12:29-32 and keep the Biblical Holy Days of Leviticus 23, which portray the Almighty's past and future dealings with mankind. Properly keeping these annual occasions produces joy and helps us understand His plan for us.
jello13091: Where are you getting this from?
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/hdintro.html
iwillgonow: These people also say Pentecost is always on a monday, yet they don't think the first day of the week is the Sabbath, so how in the world is that the day after if it's two days after?
psycho314t: i have yet to see the logic in that one
jello13091: They are tryimg to use whatever they can to prove that the Sabbath is not on a Sunday.
jello13091: So why would they say that another Sabbath, Pentecost, is on a Sunday, when they think that it would contradict themselves.
iwillgonow: Possibly.
iwillgonow: History of the Sabbath in the Bible. Shows how the Patriarchs, Israel, Jesus and the Apostles kept the Sabbath, as well as Gentile Christians. Proof texts that Sunday is not the day of Christian worship. Sunday came into the professing Christian church from Roman sun worshipers who were anti-Jewish. Catholics and Protestants agree that the Bible does not authorize Sunday keeping. Sunday is a mark of the Beast, while the true Sabbath is an important sign of God's people.
iwillgonow: Hm, the feast of Tabernacles.
iwillgonow: Did I say we didn't keep that one because it only applied to Israelites born?
psycho314t: yeah, i was going to ask you about that one... ive seen several things that said everyone should live in temp. dwellings that week..
psycho314t: ya u did
iwillgonow: Post the verses about that feast.
psycho314t: Levi:23:33: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Levi:23:34: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month [shall be] the feast of tabernacles [for] seven days unto the LORD.
Levi:23:35: On the first day [shall be] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].
Levi:23:36: Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it [is] a solemn assembly; [and] ye shall do no servile work [therein].
psycho314t: Levi:23:39: Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.
Levi:23:40: And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Levi:23:41: And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Levi:23:42: Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
Levi:23:43: That your generations may know that I m
psycho314t: Levi:23:43: That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.
iwillgonow: There's the Israelites born part.
psycho314t: Deut:16:13: Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:
Deut:16:14: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.
Deut:16:15: Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice.
psycho314t: arent we all spritually israelites or something, tho?
iwillgonow: All who are Israelite born should dwell in booths, hence the feast being called the feast of booths by some, but the rest should keep it all except for that.
psycho314t: where'd u get that?
iwillgonow: I said it.
psycho314t: but do u know it?
iwillgonow: I know it says Israelites born should dwell in booths, and I know that it says that Zech:14:16: And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. , so I assume that all should keep the feast, and only the Israelites should dwell in booths, as per the verse in the Bible.
psycho314t: grr, brb
psycho314t: back
psycho314t: are we supposed to travel, come home or something, for the 3 feasts?
iwillgonow: They were supposed to go to the place where God put His name, which was Jerusalem for many years, where His glory resided in the temple.
iwillgonow: Today, God has no place where He has sanctioned His presence or put His name, therefore we go to our own homes, or gather together, two or more, in Jesus' name, and He is there with us.
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: The New Testament Church kept the feasts in localized areas, Acts 20:5-6.
iwillgonow: So today there is NOT one place where God has chosen to place His name. He places His name on His people, the children of God, John 17:11, 21-23. Where they are gathered together, God is in their midst, Matthew 18:20. Brethren of like faith should make every effort to meet together in the worship of God, Hebrews 10:24-25. It should be a place where the cares of this life, this world's influences, do not interfere with the spiritual aspect of the Feast. Such a place will indeed be blessed by the Almighty.
psycho314t: makes sense
iwillgonow: Jude:1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
iwillgonow: Bible proof for egw's account of that event.
psycho314t: ah.. kewl
iwillgonow: Jude:1:25: To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
iwillgonow: The only one called "Saviour" is Jesus, and that calls Jesus "God." Proof for that.
psycho314t: i found more proof for that in 1 john, i think
psycho314t: 1John:3:16: Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
iwillgonow: Yup.
psycho314t: hmm.. i thought this article was trying to say the new moons are sabbaths, but then it says "NOTE: The Bible does not command cessation of work on the New Moons (except the Holy Day of Trumpets). New Moons are a time to seek God, fellowship with others if possible, spend extra time in prayer and Bible Study."
psycho314t: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/newmoon.html
iwillgonow: Yeah, only the new year new moon is a Sabbath or something.
psycho314t: yeah.. but it says the othe rnew moons are still supposed to be recognized, which i didnt know
iwillgonow: Not officially/Biblically.
iwillgonow: Unless they cited some verses for that.
psycho314t: im checking their verses out
psycho314t: Ezek:45:17: And it shall be the prince's part [to give] burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
psycho314t: but look at this first
psycho314t: Amos:8:1: Thus hath the Lord GOD showed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
Amos:8:2: And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
Amos:8:3: And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: [there shall be] many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast [them] forth with silence.
Amos:8:4: Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
Amos:8:5: Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
iwillgonow: What about it?
psycho314t: a basket of summer fruit.. a new moon on which they couldn't sell... but the new moon beginning the year is spring, not summer, right?
iwillgonow: So you're saying the new moon that's a Sabbath is near the end of summer?
iwillgonow: I'd have to ask to know when it is, cause I'm not sure.
psycho314t: im asking if them observing a new moon that isnt at the beginning of spring would mean that thats not the only one to be observed
psycho314t: iwillgonow: Yeah, only the new year new moon is a Sabbath or something. <= new year = beginning of spring
iwillgonow: There is only one new moon that's a Sabbath, I'm pretty sure.
iwillgonow: Which one it is I thought might be the one that brings in the new year.
iwillgonow: Maybe it's another.
psycho314t: hm
iwillgonow: Psal:81:3: Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
iwillgonow: Isai:66:23: And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
psycho314t: thats the one i was about to paste
iwillgonow: Colo:2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
iwillgonow: The new moon Sabbath might be that one with the blowing of the trumpet.
psycho314t: Numb:10:10: Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I [am] the LORD your God.
psycho314t: in the beginnings of your months...
iwillgonow: Doesn't say anything about the beginning of the months being a Sabbath of any kind.
psycho314t: no.. but they blew the trumpets & gave sacrifices at the beginning of every month... would that lend to the idea that even tho its not a sabbath, it should still be recognized by fellowship or something?
iwillgonow: Perhaps, though the sacrifices and peace offerings were offered everyday. Nothing special there.
psycho314t: Numb:28:11: And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot;
Numb:28:12: And three tenth deals of flour [for] a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one bullock; and two tenth deals of flour [for] a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one ram;
Numb:28:13: And a
psycho314t: and several other things
iwillgonow: K, those we don't do cause of Jesus.
psycho314t: Read Numbers 10:10. Trumpets were to be blown on the Sabbaths and "solemn days [moed, appointed times]" and New Moons as an integral part of the burnt offerings and sacrifices of those days. Also see Numbers 28:11, 14.
Some have argued that since sacrifices were given on the New Moons and Feast Days that we no longer have to observe these days. If this were true, then the Sabbath is not to be observed either, because special sacrifices were commanded on every Sabbath also, Numbers 28:9-10. Were sacrifices and burnt offerings originally a part of these days? Jeremiah 7:22-23, Galatians 3:19, and Hebrews 10:8.
iwillgonow: I'll have to look into the new moon thing again.
iwillgonow: We settled it as only one a year as a Sabbath.
iwillgonow: Don't remember the details.
psycho314t: yeah.. ive never looked into it, i just remember what ur dad said about it
06/16/01
psycho314t: i started a list of new moons
psycho314t: trying to check the times given on that navy website against our timezone
iwillgonow: daylight savings isn't Biblical.
psycho314t: so i need to add the hour back to half of them?
iwillgonow: I'm just saying I don't remember seeing daylight savings time in the Bible anywhere.
jello13091: But it happens.
iwillgonow: I just remember sun up, sundown.
psycho314t: i get that...
iwillgonow: It doesn't "happen," it's a man-made thing like the day beginning at midnight.
jello13091: yeah and then sun up and sundown at different times!
jello13091: Then why does the sun set much earlier or later?
iwillgonow: Julie, do you even know what daylight savings time is?
psycho314t: so answer my question that i msg'd u earlier in the week.. do we need to take into account daylight savings and the time zone differences?
psycho314t: or.. i guess not daylight savings, but what about the rest
psycho314t: ?
jello13091: Isn't it with the time of sunset and sunrise moving either forwards or backwards?
iwillgonow: Time zones of course, otherwise when it's sundown in the east we'll be observing it, though the sun is up.
iwillgonow: HUMANS decided to start the day either earlier or later, depending on how GOD has the seasons change due to the length of day and night changing due to the position of the earth relative to the sun at different points in space.
iwillgonow: But it doesn't "happen" naturally.
jello13091: But sunrise and sunset are still different.
iwillgonow: What are you saying?
jello13091: LIke the sun sets now at 8:40, soon it will be setting at 7:40
iwillgonow: NO IT WILL NOT!
jello13091: Then the sun will alwasy sets at 8:40 all year long?
iwillgonow: That's HUMANS decision like making the day start at midnight!
psycho314t: ...
psycho314t: i *think* what he's trying to say is that bible times based hours on the daylight. we don't.
jello13091: Humans call it daylight sacvin
jello13091: savings but do they make the sun set earlier and later?
iwillgonow: Yes! Jennifer knows what is going on.
jello13091: Ok
iwillgonow: If I say "NOW IT IS 7," is it seven?
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: Sun and moon determine what time it is.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: Not a time coucil.
iwillgonow: council.
jello13091: OK.
iwillgonow: You get it Jennifer?
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Great.
psycho314t: great, refresh the page and check my math
iwillgonow: NOV. 15 6 40 15 0 40
iwillgonow: Should be 24.
iwillgonow: Not zero.
psycho314t: no... there is no 24:40 in military time
psycho314t: 23:59 goes to 00:0
psycho314t: 0 = midnight
psycho314t: : P
iwillgonow: Your math is good so far.
psycho314t: good
psycho314t: jacob, where did you get the info for the actual solstice date?
iwillgonow: Farmer's old almanac.
iwillgonow: The book, I didn't find it online.
psycho314t: oh
psycho314t: In the Hebrew calendar of that era, months began with the first sighting of the crescent Moon following astronomical New Moon, with the evening of the sighting beginning day 1 of the month.
iwillgonow: Bull.
iwillgonow: The first day of the new moon was and has been when there is NO moon.
iwillgonow: And they were smart enough to calculate it.
iwillgonow: Smarter than us.
psycho314t: i saw something about it on tv too just a couple days ago
psycho314t: it was a documentary from israel or something, and it showed mountains with places for big bonfires that theyd use to convey the message of the crescent when they saw it all they way back to the sanhedrin, who would then declare the beginning of the month
psycho314t: Sightings of the lunar crescent are subject to local weather conditions and the ability of the observer. Because of these problems, a special committee of the Sanhedrin made official decisions about when to begin each month. We do not know the details of their work. However, the committee most likely judged the validity of reported sightings against predicted dates of New Moons and estimates of when the lunar crescent would become visible.
iwillgonow: See, the problem with that is that we iz stewpid and they iz smartr than uz.
iwillgonow: They calculated that stuff out perfectly.
iwillgonow: None of that "have to see it to believe it" junk.
iwillgonow: Otherwise bad weather would throw them off.
iwillgonow: Think about it.
iwillgonow: Smart Adam, dumb Jacob.
iwillgonow: Sin makes us worse over time.
iwillgonow: Shorter, fatter, smaller, stupider...
psycho314t: If there was a stretch of bad weather, they might have ordered the month to begin 30 days following the previous beginning of the month. An occasional error of a day is quite likely. Before many months passed, however, a valid sighting would prevent accumulation of errors.
iwillgonow: That's great, but they were still smart enough to calculate it, and they did, just like us.
psycho314t: ok
psycho314t: so.. what are we doing now?
iwillgonow: You done with that?
psycho314t: done with..?
iwillgonow: The new moons on the calendar?
psycho314t: uh, go here now: calendar
psycho314t: i got rid of all the other junk
psycho314t: i'll get the rest of the new moons later
iwillgonow: Ya keep revising it...haha
psycho314t: i always do.. it'll prolly change again by the next time you see it
iwillgonow: Now, identify the start of the year.
psycho314t: gimme solstice dates
psycho314t: i'll put those on there too
iwillgonow: And of the next year, or the end of the past year.
iwillgonow: I don't have those dates.
iwillgonow: They're in the book.
jello13091: Then get them!
psycho314t: and then book is in midland
psycho314t: the*
psycho314t: ?
jello13091: that stinks
iwillgonow: Solstice date...
iwillgonow: People think it's Easter and mess everything up.
iwillgonow: So finding it online would be risky.
psycho314t: well, we can work with this year at least
psycho314t: cuz we know when we observed passover, and so we can tell which moon started the year
iwillgonow: What date did this year start on, people?
iwillgonow: (Lord's Supper to you)
psycho314t: mar 24, i assume
psycho314t: doh, sorry
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: Yeah, that was it.
jello13091: the 24th
psycho314t: but.. wait
jello13091: was a saturday.
psycho314t: how will we know whether the new moons fall before or after sundown?
iwillgonow: By the military time.
psycho314t: we don't have anything thatll tell us sunset times that far in advance, tho
psycho314t: cuz it moves a minute or so every day
psycho314t: and i think i should have left daylight savings in there
iwillgonow: Why?
iwillgonow: Sun sets not by that.
psycho314t: no, but we tell time by it
psycho314t: AUG. 18 20 55
jello13091: what is that?
psycho314t: it wont be 8:55 here during daylight savings
psycho314t: it'll be 9:55 when the new moon happens
psycho314t: thats just one of the dates
jello13091: ok
psycho314t: our clocks will say 9:55.. do u get what i mean?
iwillgonow: That wouldn't matter in that case.
iwillgonow: Either time would still be after dark.
psycho314t: not in that case, but it could somewhere
psycho314t: lemme go back & fix that real quick
psycho314t: ok.. i think
iwillgonow: Wow.
iwillgonow: All that time for one sentence.
psycho314t: ...?
psycho314t: i changed the daylight savings times back
iwillgonow: MAR. 24 19 21 - beginning of the new year
psycho314t: some of the hours are different, observant one
psycho314t: AUG. 18 21 55
iwillgonow: Alright, let's finish what we were doing.
jello13091: How about we start it!
psycho314t: Levi:23:5: In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD's passover.
jello13091: That was the 7th of April then, right?
jello13091: Or the Lord's Supper was there.
iwillgonow: Now be careful, days go from sundown to sundown.
