the Biblical calendar: feast days and the events of creation & the flood

(click here to view the Biblical calendar)

04/07/01

iwillgonow: Jesus was killed on the Passover day.
iwillgonow: To fulfill prophecy and the sacrificial system, Him being the Ultimate Lamb slain that the Israelites could be forgiven their sins.
psycho314t: ok.. so what about easter? why is it not celebrated until a week later?
iwillgonow: Because the Gregorian calandar is pagan, a Roman device.
iwillgonow: Between the time Jesus died and rose was 3 days only.
iwillgonow: Not a week.
psycho314t: yeah, i know that
psycho314t: so which one is wrong..? that good friday & easter are celebrated next weekend instead of in the middle of the week, or that the Lords supper is tomorrow instead of next.. thursday?
iwillgonow: The Bible says that the fourteenth day of the first month of the year is Passover, or now the Lord's Supper.
iwillgonow: The year just began with Spring.
iwillgonow: The vernal equinox.
iwillgonow: Shall a new year begin in the DEAD of winter?
iwillgonow: No, that's not common sense.
iwillgonow: New year begins with Spring, the renewal, rebirth of life.
iwillgonow: New beginning, new year.
psycho314t: ok, that makes sense..
iwillgonow: The Gregorian calandar is so corrupt and pagan that it doesn't follow the seasons of the year. How stupid is that?
psycho314t: pretty dumb
iwillgonow: Spring is the beginning, winter is the end.
iwillgonow: That is the natural order of the earth.
iwillgonow: God gave the earth the moon to measure the months of the year.
iwillgonow: A "new moon" is the beginning of a new month.
iwillgonow: A "new moon" is when there is no moon in the sky, making a full moon the halfway point of the month.
iwillgonow: The "new moon" closest to the vernal equinox is the beginning of the first month of the year.
iwillgonow: Because it cannot be the vernal equinox alone, seeing that God commanded the moon to be for months, in Genesis.
iwillgonow: And that explains the slight descrepancy between the equinox and tonight being the beginning of the 14th day of the first month.
psycho314t: aha
iwillgonow: You can check in a farmer's almanac to find when the last full moon was, and that was the first of the year.
iwillgonow: Can't forget the moon...but I did.
psycho314t: yeah.. we might have a calendar w/ the moon's phases on it somewhere... but mom wants me to eat, so brb
iwillgonow: So anyway, astronomy is the same, it's just the man-made calandars that have everything on the wrong seasonal times and such.
iwillgonow: k
psycho314t: i knew the calendars were different, but i'd never thought about how much diff they were
iwillgonow: Oh they're messed up.
iwillgonow: All off whack and out of harmony with nature.

 

04/15/01

iwillgonow: Saw Rome and the Vatican bring in their pagan holiday in real time on Catholic tv, after midnight.
psycho314t: heh... i skipped our sunrise service this morning after what we talked about last night
iwillgonow: What we talk about that inspired you to do that?
psycho314t: when the sunrise service came up in the chat... the fact that it was another part of the sun god stuff, or whatever that was
iwillgonow: Fertility rites of the goddess of heaven, Ishtar.
psycho314t: ya, thats easter.. but the sunrise service had a diff meaning
iwillgonow: This is true that any formal sunday worship is done under the history of only pagan customs/traditions/ceremonies/rituals.
iwillgonow: Even using the same things (eggs, cakes, bunnies).
psycho314t: ya, i know...
iwillgonow: Pagans call the true Sabbath day "Saturday," but I don't know of anything else pagananity has tried to do to dishonor or alter the Sabbath.
iwillgonow: "Saturday" being "The day of Saturn," named after the planet for it's honor.
psycho314t: ah.. didnt know that
iwillgonow: Every day of the week has a pagan title since way back, probably originating in Rome, as many pagan things seem to have gained worldwide precedence there.
iwillgonow: Sunday-day of the sun
psycho314t: yeah, makes sense..
iwillgonow: Monday-day of the moon
psycho314t: thursday is thunder, if i remember correctly
iwillgonow: Tuesday-dunno
iwillgonow: Wednesday-dunno
iwillgonow: Thursday-I dunno for sure either
iwillgonow: Friday-dang, gonna have to look these up!
psycho314t: http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/time/days.htm
iwillgonow: Ah, found it on another site as well.
iwillgonow: Tuesday-Mars
iwillgonow: Wednesday-Mercury
iwillgonow: Thursday-Jupiter
iwillgonow: Friday-Venus
iwillgonow: Roman soldiers stationed in Egypt became accustomed to the pagan seven-day week and began to introduce it into their own homeland to replace their eight-day marketing week. Octavian (Caesar Augustus) and succeeding Roman rulers permitted this practice but it wasn't made official until the emperor Constantine took that step in A.D. 321.
psycho314t: 8-day week...?
iwillgonow: The seven day week being pagan not because of the length (according to the Bible), but according to the names.
iwillgonow: He has no footnote for that fact.
iwillgonow: I've never heard of Rome having an 8 day week.
iwillgonow: But the naming of days after planets was the worldwide standard when Rome adopted it at the date above.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Take a look at the table and you'll see how many, many languages have adopted this naming standard, and they all look sorta alike. http://www.12x30.net/origin.html
psycho314t: yeah, & no telling how many they left out... i know spanish is alot like all those too..

 

05/25/01

iwillgonow: Well, I know the Jewish calendar is corrupt.
iwillgonow: The rabbis alter the holy days to not fall on certain events.
iwillgonow: Thereby effectively rearranging the order of months.
iwillgonow: They have a leap-month.
psycho314t: how can u tell this is based on the jewish calendar tho? and.. huh?
iwillgonow: I've never, ever saw or heard of anybody actually going by the solstice to determine the beginning of the year.
iwillgonow: Or vernal equinox or whatever it was.
psycho314t: i was just trying to remember what it was.. solstice doesnt seem right, but vernal equinox wouldnt be it either, cuz thats the beginning of summer.. not til june..
iwillgonow: The vernal equinox is in march, and is the beginning of the year.
iwillgonow: June is the summer soltice.
psycho314t: hm.. i thought vernal = summer
psycho314t: ok
psycho314t: bad memory
iwillgonow: September is the autumnal equinox and winter in december is the winter solstice.
iwillgonow: So the equinoxes and solstices are opposite each other.
iwillgonow: The biblestudy.org calendar is a mess, I don't even see the New Moon sabbath that begins the new year.
iwillgonow: What is the last great day? I dunno.
psycho314t: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/taber1.html
iwillgonow: Oh, they call the last day of the feast of tabernacles by a special name.
iwillgonow: I don't know if it has a special name Biblically, but that day is a Sabbath.
psycho314t: ya.. so the feast tabernacles is literally living in a tent for a week, or what?
iwillgonow: Yes, to those who are Israelite-born.
psycho314t: no one else observes it at all, or observes just the sabbath days?
iwillgonow: We can study that tomorrow.
iwillgonow: The vernal equinox for this year was march 20th.
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: Why Jesus Kept Festivals and Holy Days? Are They for Israel Only?
Prunkard says that Jesus kept them only for setting an example of obedience to God and because He was a Jew. He holds that it was illegal for Gentiles to keep the Feasts, especially in places other than Jerusalem. Since the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 and the collapse of the Levitical system, keeping Holy Days is Biblically illegal.
(However..) I John 2:1-6 shows that we are to walk as He walked. Exodus 12:47-49 tells us that there is one law for all. God is not divided. He has no double standards. We must all become the spiritual seed of Abraham, Galatians 3:29. All nations, including Egypt, will be forced to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, when Christ returns to rule the world, Zechariah 14:16-19.
psycho314t: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/hdattck.html
iwillgonow: iwillgonow:Every resource I've found says the vernal equinox occurred on March 20th.
iwillgonow: The Farmer's Almanac also says that, but it shows the day that is closest to being equal between day and night as the 15th.
iwillgonow: What?
iwillgonow: This blows me away that the people who made the data, typed the numbers, call a day more than 7 minutes further away from being perfect the vernal equinox, when the correct date was figured out with their own brains.
iwillgonow: EVERYBODY, and I mean everybody, says it was the 20th.
iwillgonow: Naval obervitory, the farmer's almanac, everybody.
iwillgonow: But the data says the 15th nite.
iwillgonow: How could they miss that? Are you kidding me? There must be a deffinition confliction or something.
psycho314t: i got absolutely none of that
psycho314t: iwillgonow: We can study that tomorrow.
iwillgonow: The vernal equinox for this year was march 20th.
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: ^-- last thing i saw
iwillgonow: That's why I resent it.
iwillgonow: Realized I wasn't online anymore.
psycho314t: /me reads all that twice.. thats messed up.. major conflict..
iwillgonow: Either they made a mistake and the entire earth hasn't realized it, or there is a deffinitional conflict, like they have made the "equinox" mean something else in astronomy.
iwillgonow: I'm calculating the day right now to make sure of the date of Pentecost.
iwillgonow: From the beginning of the year, still being the 24th, regardless whether the vernal equinox was the 15th or 20th.
iwillgonow: Because that is the first and closest New Moon, and God's years begin by the moon, not the sun.
psycho314t: Either of the two times during a year when the sun crosses the celestial equator and when the length of day and night are approximately equal; the vernal equinox or the autumnal equinox.
psycho314t: sounds like it could be 2 diff possible times, maybe..? or maybe not.. i dunno..
iwillgonow: Vernal means spring.
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Spring only comes once a year.
iwillgonow: No problem there.
psycho314t: nah, i meant the "when the sun crosses the celestial equator" and "equal day/night" parts
iwillgonow: Yes, and there's no conflict there because there can only be one spring and one fall, understand? It's impossible to confuse the two, cause they are two different beginnings to two different seasons.
psycho314t: i wasnt confusing spring and fall.. u mentioned the possibility of 2 diff definitions of 'equinox'.. i was suggesting those 2 things as possible different interpretations of the word...
iwillgonow: I don't know what you're doing, but there's no problem, ok?
psycho314t: ok.. nevermind..
iwillgonow: The deffinition of the word equinox is "equal night," and it happens twice a year, but the seasons differentiate between them with no problem.
psycho314t: i know that
psycho314t: iwillgonow: Eitherthey made a mistake and the entire earth hasn't realized it, or there is a deffinitional conflict, like they have made the "equinox" mean something else in astronomy.
iwillgonow: Why is everybody on earth calling the 20th the day when it's 7 minutes off? Your possible answer "Either of the two times during a year when the sun crosses the celestial equator and when the length of day and night are approximately equal; the vernal equinox or the autumnal equinox," is not the answer, cause spring and autumn are not related to the point they'd not be able to differentiate between the two or create a confusion around.
psycho314t: since i know next to nothing about astrology, i was suggesting/asking of it was possible that one definition = sun crossing celestial equator, and definition b = equal day/nights
psycho314t: in other words, could the sun cross the celestial equator on a day when its 7 mins off?
iwillgonow: Alright Jennifer:
psycho314t: lemme guess
psycho314t: equator = equal
psycho314t: therefore the answer is now
psycho314t: no*
iwillgonow: Equinox: the time when the sun crosses the equator, making night and day of equal length in all parts of the world.
psycho314t: i was just asking because i had no other ideas
iwillgonow: The only way for one to occur is with the other; they cannot be separated; therefore there is no way that problem with the deffinition could occur.
psycho314t: then what kind of definition differences could there possibly be?
iwillgonow: They had to of made it mean something different from equal day and night, otherwise how could they call the 20th the equinox when the 15th is seven minutes closer to being equal???
psycho314t: or someone messed up royally
iwillgonow: And the whole entire world not catch the naval observitory and farmer's almanac's mistake?
psycho314t: ppl dont want to count out minutes and hours themselves.. thats what those things exist for, so we can just look up and blindly believe it
iwillgonow: There are 6 holy convocations, with more than one sabbath in more than one of them.
psycho314t: uhm.. yes?
iwillgonow: Can you name them all?
iwillgonow: "Alex, I'll take 'Name the Holy Convocations' for 1000 please."
psycho314t: possibly.. but did we just drop the equinox thing?
psycho314t: Lords supper, feast of unleavened bread, feast of first fruits, feast of tabernacles, day of atonement...
psycho314t: trumpets?
iwillgonow: The only way to answer that question is to find out what the U.S. naval observitory and Farmer's Almanac were thinking when they said the equinox was the 20th, so we'd have to ask them.
psycho314t: great..
psycho314t: so which one do we go by? the logical or the universally accepted?
iwillgonow: LISTEN
iwillgonow: I think I got it, the deffinition issue.
psycho314t: you dont hafta yell : \
iwillgonow: Guess what Pope Gregory XIII decided to do in 1582 A.D.....that's right, he made the Gregorian calendar, and set the equinox "officially" on the 20th or 21st in order to keep it to the same day of the month--Encyclopedia Britannica
psycho314t: very good
iwillgonow: That is what changed the deffinition.
psycho314t: definition has ONE "F" : P ... yeah, shoulda guessed it was something like that
iwillgonow: Therefore we go against what the world calls the equinox because it is merely a roman edict and not astronomical.
psycho314t: so when does that put pentecost?
iwillgonow: Same time, because the year would have begun on the 24th anyway, since that is the closest new moon.
iwillgonow: We just learned that for good measure.
psycho314t: ack. ok.. yeah, thats good to know...
iwillgonow: To keep us from making a mistake or learning errors.
psycho314t: ya
iwillgonow: And now I'm tired.
psycho314t: go to bed
iwillgonow: Tomorrow we'll finalize Pentecost, figure out it's date using the correct dates, year, months, days, that sort of thing, maybe even make a timeline for this year to have an exact idea of when the rest of the feasts are coming to plan for them.
psycho314t: i was gonna suggest that we make a calendar of some sort
psycho314t: so thats kewl

 

06/02/01

iwillgonow: Something we need to keep in mind is that the Bible requires that the Sabbaths be kept in their due seasons, which means what exactly?
psycho314t: aaaargh brb
jello13091: That we won't be celerbating a new year in winter
iwillgonow: Answer the question of HOW the Sabbath even COULD be kept in winter?
jello13091: Well, it could
iwillgonow: You did not answer the question completely, that was not a sufficient answer.
jello13091: Well, i don't know
jello13091: No, we must follow the order of the Sabbaths in the Bible. We cannot just throw them in places because they look good. we can't celebrate certain things in different seasons because that is not how they were
jello13091: The feast of the firstfruit could not have been in the winter because everything would have died
iwillgonow: That's your best answer so far.
iwillgonow: Think, use common sense.
iwillgonow: What good does a feast for the harvest do when there IS NO HARVEST!?!?
jello13091: It could be kept in the winter jsut as it could be kept now
jello13091: I know!
iwillgonow: How it can be kept out of its due season, along with other Sabbaths, has something to do with the sun and the moon. Figure it out.
jello13091: The sun and the moon control the seaons and when they change
jello13091: Depending on the moon is how we get the beginning of the year
jello13091: From that point, we continue counting and using the info. we see on when and what the Sabbaths are, whether for the harvest or for atonement.
jello13091: It can be kept wrong by using a different day for the sun and the moon stuff to occur. Or by counting the wrong number of days. Or by making up your own way to count and to do things
iwillgonow: You said depending on the moon is how we get the beginning of the year, correct?
jello13091: Yes
psycho314t: back.
iwillgonow: So the moon dictates when a new year begins, and when the past year ends, correct?
jello13091: Isn't that what we used to start the counting towards the Feast of Unleavened Bread?
iwillgonow: Yes.
jello13091: Then that would be it
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: So the moon dictates when a new year begins, and when the past year ends, correct?
jello13091: Yes
iwillgonow: So by the moon we count the years, correct?
jello13091: Well i know we count the days by it, so I guess we count the years also.
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: So by the moon we count the years, correct?
jello13091: YEs
jello13091: Dedust that from my answers
jello13091: deduct
iwillgonow: So get this; the moon is what we determine the years by, NOT the sun; we are not living in solar years, but lunar years, correct?
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: So what good is that big ball of fire in the sky for, then?
jello13091: That's right....the Jews tried to incorporate both lunar and solar years, and then they tried to change everything in order to get them to agree
jello13091: Tells us when day is
iwillgonow: What else?
jello13091: Light
iwillgonow: What else?
jello13091: A star
psycho314t: heat
psycho314t: keeps things alive
iwillgonow: You're missing the most important function the sun gives in direct relation to what we are talking about, Julie.
jello13091: DOesnt sunlight help things grow?
psycho314t: brb....
jello13091: to let us know how long to celebrate the Sabbath for. If we go from one night to the next, we know a day should pass between them
iwillgonow: What position planet earth is in, in relation to the sun, determines what SEASON every part of the earth is in.
jello13091: the equinox!
iwillgonow: So the sun determines the what?
jello13091: the vernal and autumanl equinoxes
jello13091: SEASON
iwillgonow: THE SUN DETERMINES THE SEASONS...
jello13091: I kept thinking that I said that the moon did the seasons, so i didnt see how the sun could
jello13091: But i see now that i said the moon did the year
psycho314t: uhm.. back again.
iwillgonow: So by the moon we know and do what, and by the sun we know and do what?
jello13091: Moon- beginning and end of year, SUn- seasons
iwillgonow: The moon also determines what, and I'll give you a HUGE HINT: It has to do with those things in a year.
jello13091: Sabbaths
iwillgonow: .............................................
iwillgonow: Try months.
jello13091: Months
iwillgonow: So what problem do we have now, if it isn't painfully obvious?
jello13091: Getting the sun and the moon to agree?
iwillgonow: What would be the case if the moon said that it was time for the first month of the year, and the sun said we were in the summer season?
jello13091: that would be a problem
iwillgonow: We would be in violation of the Bible.
iwillgonow: But this will happen.
iwillgonow: This will happen.
jello13091: Why?
iwillgonow: Because the time it takes to make a year by the moon,
iwillgonow: AND,
iwillgonow: the time it takes to go through four full seasons,
iwillgonow: ARE,
iwillgonow: NOT,
iwillgonow: EQUAL.
iwillgonow: Therefore as the years roll by, the difference will grow, and grow and grow, until you will eventually be totally out of whack.
jello13091: ANd then what?
iwillgonow: You've disobeyed the Bible, which says to have EVERY Sabbath in its due season.
jello13091: SO then we cant have the disagreement
iwillgonow: The harvest at harvest time, the others at their times.
iwillgonow: So all of that I just went through was to answer my own original question, which was HOW is it possible, HOW COULD it be possible for a Sabbath to be held in its wrong season?
jello13091: If the sun and moon don't agree and they keep getting things messed up
jello13091: iwillgonow: Therefore as the years roll by, the difference will grow, and grow and grow, until you will eventually be totally out of whack.
iwillgonow: Has this always been a problem?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Explain.
iwillgonow: Fully, in detail.
jello13091: Well, we need to remember that back right after creation, everything was perfect/in perfect harmony. The sun and the moon worked perfectly. But as Adam and Eve fell, and humans begun to degrade themselves, things have begun to get messed up. We don't live as long, we aren't as tall, the sun and the moon don't exist in harmony.
psycho314t: brb
iwillgonow: That is incorrect.
iwillgonow: That is not the correct answer.
jello13091: Ok then I dont know how to answer it
iwillgonow: You do know exactly how to answer it perfectly.
iwillgonow: You've been taught it.
iwillgonow: You've read it.
iwillgonow: You got it.
iwillgonow: I'll give you one huge hint, Julie: It has to do with the Flood.
jello13091: let me think
jello13091: It was something about the Heavens opening up for the first time, and atmospheric pressure
iwillgonow: Jennifer, head on over to my house. I'm sick of you leaving the conversation, possibly interfering with your ability to retain what you're reading, and keep a consistent train of thought to flow with the proceedings, building upon each and every fact and point.
jello13091: here we go
jello13091: give me a sec to get this going
psycho314t: back. i'm sick of it too, they wont leave me alone, and i cant have the car for another "30 minutes, maybe less"
iwillgonow: Julie is answering thie question "Was this always the case," using a detailed explanation to support her answer.
jello13091: I can't find it. jello13091: I remember, but not well enough
jello13091: The Heavens opened and all the water fell out
jello13091: That introduced and created atmospheric pressure, gravity, something
jello13091: Just tell us, because I can't think of what it is
iwillgonow: You know it didn't create gravity, else everything before that would of floated off into outer space.
iwillgonow: Here's your next hint: Look in your creation notes.
jello13091: It just kept rainning and day and night kind of disappeared.
jello13091: I looked there
iwillgonow: Here's your next hint: Look in kent hovind's creation/evolution book.
jello13091: what in the world?
jello13091: I don't have the creation book
iwillgonow: I gave you a copy.
jello13091: No you didn't, i gave it back
iwillgonow: Jennifer has one, she'll look for you.
psycho314t: i'm looking
jello13091: Seasons, days and years, were created on Day 4
jello13091: yeah that evolution book is what i need. that's where the stuff is
jello13091: sun and moon also on Day 4
jello13091: oh wait
psycho314t: the earths spin is slowing down.. but i dont think that has anything to do with the flood
jello13091: hydrosphere, barrier beweteen space and sky --> gravity increased --> increased air pressure and density (oxygen) --> aire pressure decreased, man shrunk (no water shields) --> oxygen so spread out.
jello13091: I had that written down...does it help any?
psycho314t: oh, my moms gonna take me instead of giving me the car, and she wants to leave now. i'll look for it on the way over there
iwillgonow: Here's your next hint: it has to do with Earth's tilt.
jello13091: Did the earth first begin to tilt after the Flood?
iwillgonow: Here's your next hint: it has to do with earth's position relative to the sun.
jello13091: The earth moved after the flood
iwillgonow: If you are answering the question, you have to answer fully and in detail, explaining your answer.
jello13091: Because of the hydrosphere moving and changing., the earth moved it's position therefore making the alignment with the sun a little off.
iwillgonow: That answer is not complete, therefore not correct.
jello13091: It's because I don't know the complete answer
iwillgonow: You are not incorporating ALL of your hints into it, as if each and every one of them didn't have something to do with this, some part to play.
iwillgonow: I'm upset, Julie, because you do know the answer.
iwillgonow: And I'm making it way to easy by giving you any help.
jello13091: jello13091: Because of the hydrosphere moving and changing., the earth moved it's position therefore making the alignment with the sun a little off. And because it made the earth become tilted which gave it a certain time and place to be with teh sun. The earth rotates around the sun and it is not a constant rate now.
iwillgonow: Still not a complete answer.
iwillgonow: You're leaving out a hint.
iwillgonow: Blatently ommitting a key word, element.
jello13091: Season
iwillgonow: There's another one
iwillgonow: but there is another.
jello13091: the seasons began as the earth started rotated and tiltings
jello13091: year
iwillgonow: STILL not incorporating a very important word into all of this, the very thing that caused it, that is the source of it, and it starts with an "f."
jello13091: FLOOD
jello13091: the flood started all of the tilting and the unevenness and the rotating
iwillgonow: Which also resulted in causing what?
jello13091: It didn't result in the seasons and years because I have in my creation notes that seasons and years were created on day 4
jello13091: the flood also created rain for the first time
iwillgonow: Do you know what causes us to have Seasons, Julie? Jennifer is here now and caught up.
jello13091: the sun
iwillgonow: Explain how the sun causes us to have seasons.
jello13091: we rotate around the sun. when this part of the world is not facing the sun, then it's winter. when we have turned and we face the sun, its summer
iwillgonow: What about fall and spring?
jello13091: fall and spring occur in the midst, like when we are partially turned. when we not facing the sun or the other side
iwillgonow: Haha...no.
jello13091: If i was there i could show yall
jello13091: i need a picture/diagram which i can't exactly do over the internet
iwillgonow: Think of the TILT of the earth.
jello13091: the earth is at a tilt for two seasons and is not at a tilt for two seasons
iwillgonow: That's closer.
iwillgonow: What happens in relation to the distance from the sun when the earth tilts a certain way?
iwillgonow: One part of the world is ____________ to the sun and one part of the world is __________ from the sun.
jello13091: is close and away
iwillgonow: Meaning what? In effect causing what? Creating what?
jello13091: CAUSING SEASONS!!!!!
iwillgonow: Yes.
jello13091: hold on
jello13091: back but maybe not for long so if i dont reply quickly i will be coming
jello13091: the tilt causes the seasons, the earth rotates, blah blah blah....can we please move on to the calendar
jello13091: are we studying science or the Bible today?
jello13091: hello?!
iwillgonow: We are studying God's creation, God created science and the Bible is in harmony with it.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: We have to prepare, unpatient one, to make the calendar by understanding WHY and WHAT we're doing, and how come.
jello13091: i am impatient
iwillgonow: I'm sending you a picture to show the tilt of the earth currently, in reference to the sun and two different times of the year.
iwillgonow: Are you seeing anything?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: Did the file transfer?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: Open AOL IM.
iwillgonow: It won't work.
jello13091: i have to set it up, can't you just send it to AOL or yahoo
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: I'll have to find a website to upload picture I drew.

picture of earths tilt and seasons

iwillgonow: You see the pic yet?
jello13091: nope, it's going very slow
iwillgonow: It's a big picture in high quality, for some reason.
jello13091: it's like almost half way there
jello13091: It couldnt download or open it
iwillgonow: f5
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: U using netscape
iwillgonow: ?
jello13091: nope
iwillgonow: Try to refresh the page.
iwillgonow: Press the refresh button.
jello13091: it closed. I'm using internet exlporer
iwillgonow: What do you mean it closed?
jello13091: It said I couldnt download it, i said ok, and it closed
iwillgonow: Try it again.
jello13091: i am
jello13091: this isnt working
iwillgonow: Fine, I'll find a professional picture.
jello13091: its like stopped doing anything
jello13091: I have a calendar ready, let's go
iwillgonow: First we prepare and go from ignorance to understanding about WHY and HOW things work with the sun and the moon and the seasons and the months and days and etc etc etc, THEN we formulate a calendar based upon that understanding, IN THAT ORDER.
jello13091: I know how it goes, all i need to explain it is that creation calendar little booklet you have. It showed it in there. we understand it
jello13091: With me being here though, i can;t see that picture
jello13091: and in having slow internet i dont know if i could find it
jello13091: Oh and send me a Kent Hovind creation book thing
iwillgonow: Imagine the planet, as you would see it from space.
iwillgonow: Now, picture the whole planet, no dark side.
jello13091: I have plenty of visual images about it
jello13091: You cant do that though
iwillgonow: Give this picture a north and a south.
iwillgonow: Are you following me?
jello13091: you cant see one side, therefore making it dark
jello13091: i'm following
iwillgonow: Now see the earth perfectly up and down, straight as a board.
jello13091: yes i see it
iwillgonow: The top of the planet is at the North, bottom at the sourth.
iwillgonow: That's not real anymore.
iwillgonow: Today's earth is tilted approx. 30 degrees to one side.
jello13091: what isn't real?
jello13091: oh
iwillgonow: So do it to that earth.
iwillgonow: And look at it.
iwillgonow: Now the "top" of the earth is 30 degrees off from the NORTH you put in your picture.
jello13091: spring and fall are when the earth is tilted and like the bottom half is getting the sun
iwillgonow: And so is the bottom from the south.
jello13091: i drew a picture
iwillgonow: So we have a planet, with a north and a south, BUT the planet's "top and bottom" are off by 30 degrees.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: It's tilted.
jello13091: got that
jello13091: thats obvious
iwillgonow: Now put the sun on the left side of the planet.
jello13091: ok done
iwillgonow: Now you see that ONE part, either the upper hemisphere or lower hemisphere, is getting more direct sun, and the other is getting less direct sun.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: The hemisphere getting more sun is CLOSER to the sun.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: It is in a warmer season.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: The hemisphere that is getting less direct sun is FURTHER AWAY from the sun.
iwillgonow: It is in a cooler season.
iwillgonow: That is what causes seasons, the tilt of the planet in relation to the sun.
iwillgonow: Now how did this come to be, EXACTLY?
jello13091: the FLOOD
iwillgonow: Explain.
jello13091: jello13091: jello13091: Because of the hydrosphere moving and changing., the earth moved it's position therefore making the alignment with the sun a little off. And because it made the earth become tilted which gave it a certain time and place to be with teh sun. The earth rotates around the sun and it is not a constant rate now.
iwillgonow: Still not a complete answer.
iwillgonow: You're leaving out a hint.
iwillgonow: Blatently ommitting a key word, element.
jello13091: Season
iwillgonow: There's another one
iwillgonow: but there is another.
jello13091: the seasons began as the earth started rotated and tiltings
jello13091: year
iwillgonow: STILL not incorporating a very important word into all of this,
iwillgonow: You're not explaining this very well.
iwillgonow: Jennifer doesn't get it.
iwillgonow: I don't get it from what you've said.
jello13091: well i dont know why the flood caused the tilt
iwillgonow: So the burden of explanation, which is on you, is not being fulfilled.
iwillgonow: Therefore your answer is not sufficient.
iwillgonow: And you do know the correct answer, and this angers me that you forget it.
iwillgonow: After intense days of study over this.
iwillgonow: It just leaves your mind.
jello13091: give me a sec. to think
iwillgonow: I'll clean up your answer now.
iwillgonow: Before the flood, there was no tilt.
iwillgonow: The earth spun exactly on "NORTH and SOUTH" all the time, always.
iwillgonow: The time it took for four seasons to pass and for a year to be complete was EQUAL.
jello13091: i said that before
jello13091: then the flood came and there was density and pressure and so such
iwillgonow: When the flood occured, God "broke up the fountains of the deep and the heavens," meaning He took the water canopy, the hydrosphere the encircled the earth, providing the mist that watered the ground for all that time before then, since there was no rain, and made it come raining down on the planet.
iwillgonow: That was an immense amount of water.
iwillgonow: And every last bit of it came down.
jello13091: I know that, but when i was trying to explain that, you said it wasn't righ
jello13091: t
iwillgonow: It it weighed so much, it was so big, that it actually tilted the earth to one side.
iwillgonow: All that weight not only caused the earth to tilt, but it also was of such force that it knocked the earth out of it's original orbit around the sun by several feet.
iwillgonow: From that point on, we've had rain.
iwillgonow: From that point on, we've had seasons in the upper and lower hemispheres depending on where the earth is in relation to the sun.
iwillgonow: So that answers the question I originally asked, which was iwillgonow: Explain HOW the sun causes us to have seasons.
jello13091: hold on
iwillgonow: And that's the way you should do it, that's you example of how to answer questions completely, with full explanation and support, showing every step of the way in your progression of logic.
jello13091: where did you get all that from?
iwillgonow: From the creation book, from Ellen White.
iwillgonow: You've got it in your creation notes to jumpstart your memory.
jello13091: my creation notes had that the things were created on day 4...that is all
iwillgonow: That was enough for you to explain fully to me the answer to my question, months ago.
iwillgonow: It was an ample jumpstarter of your memory.
iwillgonow: Now that we've found a problem, and figured out how that problem came to be, we have to know how to solve that problem, either by compensating for it or something.
iwillgonow: What is the problem again?
jello13091: The sun causes us to have seasons because of the tilt of the planet in relation to the sun. Before the flood, there was no tilt. The earth spun exactly on north and south all the time. When the flood occured, God "broke up the fountains of the deep and the heavens," meaning He took the water canopy, the hydrosphere that encircled the earth, providing for the mist that waterd the ground since there was no rain and made it come raining down on the planet.
iwillgonow: ?
jello13091: There was an immense amount of water, It weighed so much, it was so big, that it actuallt tilted the earth to one side.
jello13091: All that weight not only caused the earth to tilt, but it also was of such force that it knocked the earth out of it's roiginal orbit around the suun by several; feet
iwillgonow: The original problem was that the time it takes for four complete seasons to occur and the time it takes for a lunar year to occur are NOT EQUAL.
jello13091: I was just answering the question
iwillgonow: Totally wrong.
iwillgonow: Therefore we have a problem keeping each and every Sabbath in its due season, because as time goes on, the difference between the two gets larger and larger and larger.
iwillgonow: So now here's where we're at: How do we have a complete lunar year and also keep the dates in their correct seasons?
jello13091: I don;t know
iwillgonow: Well nobody knows.
iwillgonow: So we can't just do the seasons, cause then we couldn't have a complete year, and we can't just do the year, cause then we'd eventually be celebrating the harvest in the winter, so what do we do?
jello13091: Well, first we need to celebrate the holidays and Sabbaths according to what the Bible says
iwillgonow: Which is both on their appointed times and in their appointed seasons, so that got you no where.
jello13091: Does Pentecost occur a certain number of days after the beginning of the year, which is almost ALWAYS at the same time?
iwillgonow: Ask Jennifer what she thinks.
jello13091: Jen., what do you think?
iwillgonow: none of jens ideas make sense. we can't keep either without violating the other, so they have to be connected in some form or fashion that works out... i just don't know what it is
iwillgonow: Here is your hint: What did we do with this year? How did we being the year? What did we think of? What did we decide? What did we do?
jello13091: Wasn't it like either the Sabbath before or after the new moon?
iwillgonow: What did we consider?
iwillgonow: What did we decide?
iwillgonow: How did we work something out?
iwillgonow: What did we work out?
iwillgonow: Did we work anything out?
iwillgonow: What happened?
jello13091: What did we decide in what case? We decided many things?
iwillgonow: Go.
jello13091: Are we tlaking about the new year? PEntecost? the moon?
iwillgonow: i dont know why he gives the keyboard to me... i wasn't studying with you guys at the beginning of this year
iwillgonow: i dontknow what he'stalking about
iwillgonow: stupid spacebar
iwillgonow: Alright, my type-0 is confusing you guys.
iwillgonow: HOW DID WE BEGIN THIS YEAR?
jello13091: We looked at the new moon and didn't we go to the closest Sabbath after that to start the year and the counting?
iwillgonow: I told Jennifer, Jennifer has heard about how we began this year, Jennifer knows from what date this year began and Jennifer knows why this year began on that date, which is to say WITH WHAT DID WE BEGIN THIS YEAR AND WHY, OR HOW DID WE BEGIN THIS YEAR?
iwillgonow: uhm... equinox
iwillgonow: the new moon closest to the equinox
jello13091: Ok that was it,
jello13091: I knew it was something close to soemthign
iwillgonow: Ok, that's close enough.
iwillgonow: Now tell me what we did there, and why?
jello13091: Because then, it will be in sync
iwillgonow: what we did there...? we used logic to figure it out...?
jello13091: Cause wont the new moon always be fairly close every year?
jello13091: The equinox will change over time because the tilt is growing and changing
iwillgonow: i think so..?
jello13091: The new moon occurs though, usually at a set time, and relys on rotation and not tilt.
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: the equinox changes because the moon phases occur in different/weird times on the gregorian calendar, maybe?
iwillgonow: jacob? am i close?
iwillgonow: take the keyboard
iwillgonow: Don't think of the Gregorian calendar in any way.
iwillgonow: It will only mess you up.
iwillgonow: And is not relevant.
iwillgonow: Except to confuse you.
iwillgonow: Cause it is so wrong.
jello13091: Jacob, we are already confused
iwillgonow: What IS the vernal equinox?
iwillgonow: grrr..
iwillgonow: day and night are equal..
iwillgonow: err
iwillgonow: closest to equal
jello13091: I was coming with that
iwillgonow: "that's not everything", he says
iwillgonow: "what is it?"
iwillgonow: he's laughing...
jello13091: The point at which the ecliptic intersects the celestial equator, the sun having a northerly motion.
iwillgonow: Do you see now why we will not, nor can not begin creating this calendar, when you guys don't know about anything that constitutes the foundation of keeping time, or why or the what's about it?
jello13091: the sun crosses the equator
iwillgonow: It's the beginning of spring.
iwillgonow: How hard was that.
jello13091: I had it right in front of my face.
iwillgonow: Now what did that have to do with HOW DID WE BEGIN THIS YEAR?
jello13091: we took the new moon closest to that
iwillgonow: i'm still not sure what he's asking
iwillgonow: What about it, Julie?
iwillgonow: What about it?
iwillgonow: So what?
iwillgonow: What about it?
jello13091: the new moon was where the year started
iwillgonow: So explain!
jello13091: oh i get it!!
iwillgonow: glad someone does
jello13091: The tilt and the sun will change over time. That is why we cannot always rely on the sun to calculate the beginning and end of things. That is why we used the new moon and not the equinox (which deals with the sun). the moon remains constant. That is how the moon and sun interact.
jello13091: i dont know if i explained that well enough
iwillgonow: jacob said earlier that the tilt wont change enough to be noticed..
iwillgonow: for a long time
iwillgonow: so i dunno if thats it or not
jello13091: but the tilt will get it off regardless, that is why it isnt perfect today
jello13091: Jacob, was that right?
iwillgonow: "the tilt will get it off like less than a micon of a second, from one year to the next"
jello13091: it's making sense in my mind but i just don't know how to explain it
iwillgonow: "it would take millennia to makeany noticable difference"
jello13091: then what is causing this problem. why is it a concern?
iwillgonow: the tilt isnt the problem
jello13091: What is the problem?
iwillgonow: We use the moon to determine the years because GOD SAID SO.
iwillgonow: We use the sun to determine the seasons because the sun determines the seasons.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: If you answered my question of why we started the year the way we did, then you would be getting somewhere, but you still haven't even asnwered that question correctly and completely.
iwillgonow: "why we started the year the way we did"....
jello13091: we started it here because GOD SAID SO
iwillgonow: what is he asking
jello13091: i have no idea
jello13091: we don;t know why we starte
jello13091: d it here
jello13091: it was the closest new moon to the vernal qequinox, thats whay we started it here
iwillgonow: Alright, Why did we start the year WHEN we started it, using WHAT we used to consider.
iwillgonow: jacob is repeating the word "why" over and over
jello13091: I just said why we started it, we considered the sun and the moon and what God said
iwillgonow: he wants u to explain
jello13091: WE STARTED THE YEAR AT THIS TIME BECUASE IT WAS THE CLOSEST NEW MOON TO THE VERNAL EQUINOX
jello13091: WE CAN;T USE THE VERNAL EQUINOX BECAUSE IT WILL CHANGE
jello13091: THE NEW MOON CLOSEST WILL BE THE SAME
iwillgonow: "no, the moon also changes dates"
jello13091: GOD TOLD US TO START IT AT THIS TIME
jello13091: BUT THE MOON ISN'T BASED ON TILTING
iwillgonow: "God told us to start at what time?"
jello13091: THE MOON DOESN'T CONTROL THE SEASONS
iwillgonow: at the time of the closest new moon to the equinox??
iwillgonow: "no He didn't
iwillgonow: "
jello13091: AT SPRING, THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR
jello13091: you just said He did
iwillgonow: "God didnt tell us to start the year at spring either"
jello13091: iwillgonow: We use the moon to determine the years because GOD SAID SO.
iwillgonow: "what does that say about starting the year?"
jello13091: we start the year with the new moon
iwillgonow: i dontthink heliked that answer
jello13091: Jacob, we're running in circles, please just tell us. we dont know
jello13091: we dont even really get what youre asking aymore
iwillgonow: You're going to figure it out, and then you'll never, ever forget it again as long as you live.
iwillgonow: Just like when you fix a car, you remember it. When you watch somebody fix a car, you don't know it.
iwillgonow: When you ride a bike, you know it.
jello13091: wrong. i can learn just from watching sometimes
iwillgonow: When you watch somebody, you don't.
jello13091: I learned how to braid hair just by watching
iwillgonow: Yeah, you can.
iwillgonow: Then you foget.
jello13091: no, i havent forgotten
iwillgonow: Until you do it yourself.
iwillgonow: Then you got it.
iwillgonow: I'm leading you in the right direction.
iwillgonow: Giving you tons and tons of hints.
jello13091: Ok, start over. piece by piece.
iwillgonow: I figured it out.
iwillgonow: You can too.
jello13091: and tell us when we answer if its right or not
iwillgonow: Why did we start the year when we did, using what and why?
jello13091: we started the year now because God said so. We use the vernal equinox and we take the closest new moon from then to figure out when the year begins. We started the year now because it is spring and spring symbolizes rebirth and new beginnings
jello13091: Those are all things that you have said
iwillgonow: we start the year with spring because it makes sense, because a new year would be new beginnings.... are we getting anywhere,jacob?
iwillgonow: what do u want to search, i haveit open
jello13091: brb
iwillgonow: k
jello13091: back
iwillgonow: wb
jello13091: wait i think i know where it is
iwillgonow: gimme the word/whatever and i can search for it...
iwillgonow: if u don't findit
jello13091: just anything dealing with the new moon or new year, or the beginning of the year
iwillgonow: i searched for first month, didnt find anything good
iwillgonow: i'll try those
iwillgonow: nothing..
jello13091: 2 Chron. 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, [even] in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.
jello13091: iwillgonow: Why did we start the year when we did, using what and why?
jello13091: Why anf what
jello13091: Why: It is written, God said to, spring is the beginning, you can;t have the beginning of a year or harvest in the mist of winter.
iwillgonow: "using what" <= bible, moons, logic
jello13091: what: We used the vernal equinox, and the new moon closest to that. We are towards the southern hemisphere
jello13091: now because we are not directly in summer yet
iwillgonow: he's still repeating why
jello13091: i'm getting there
iwillgonow: because those are how we determine spring
jello13091: oh my~
iwillgonow: or not
jello13091: maybe this is it
iwillgonow: i hopeso
iwillgonow: The most recent typing is on the right track, the right mental trainway, but where is the answer I need, where is the "WHY?"
jello13091: We have a 30 degree tilt going. That means that we would not start the new year directly facing or even with the sun or the nothern or southern hemispheres. The vernal equinox is when day and night are equal or extremely close to equal.
jello13091: still going
jello13091: we start in spring because of that tilt. and we are not direct with the moon either because there is still a tilt on that side too
iwillgonow: from the look he's giving the monitor, i dont think so...
jello13091: So we can't base everyhting exactly on the moon and the sun.
jello13091: I had it but i lost it
jello13091: Jacob, am i anywhere close?
iwillgonow: jello13091: what: We used the vernal equinox, and the new moon closest to that. NOW TELL ME WHY!
jello13091: because day and night are equal, it changes the seasons, it is the beginning
iwillgonow: "what does that have to do with the new moon?"
jello13091: the new moon occurs then
jello13091: oh wait
jello13091: because of the tilt, that is the time we the moon is in range completely to us. we are on an equal level and we see the whole moon, otherwise known as the full moon/new moon
jello13091: I have a picture and it makes sense
jello13091: brb
jello13091: back
iwillgonow: i'm going to reitterate his questions again to make sure we've got them... wb
jello13091: ok i was wrong, the new moon is the crescent right?
iwillgonow: question #1 was how can we observe the sabbaths correctly in accordance to the lunar year as well as the solar seasons, when they dont coincide like they should... and in order to answer that, he says we need to answerthis: why did we start the year when we did, what did we use to figure this out, and why did we use it..... "no,the new moon is no moon"
jello13091: ok then
iwillgonow: and he says we have 2 parts of the 2nd question
jello13091: when we are down around 7 oclock by the 30 degree tilt the we are still a ways away from the full moon.
jello13091: draw a picture, it could help, with that 30 degree tilt in there
jello13091: when texas gets to 7 oclock (relavent area), it is spring, cause we are not directly facing the sun yet.
iwillgonow: why did we start theyearwhen we did: because its the beginning, new beginning, spring, rebirth = new year...... we used the equinox and new moons.. but why did we use the equinox and new moons.. uhm.. you lost me
jello13091: therefore we are not directly facing the moon either (which would be a full moon) and we would just be beginning to go through the moon cycle
jello13091: so we see no moon
jello13091: we use the equinox because that is when day and night are equal which would work with the beginnung
iwillgonow: i think he's saying we're already past what you're trying to answer... we just needto figure out why we use the vernal equinox and new moon
iwillgonow: that makes sense, i think..
jello13091: well thats why
jello13091: or else i dont know why we use it. thats just how it is
iwillgonow: ok, we use the equinox because its a beginning, first day of spring... but why do weuse thenew moon?
jello13091: well we can't start something new, half way through a moon cycle.
jello13091: when it's full or in a crescent, it has already begun.
iwillgonow: doh
jello13091: it's like beginning a race when all the other runers are half way done
iwillgonow: apparently thats still not the answer
iwillgonow: "thats a fact, you cant begin the year in themiddle ofa moon cycle even if it is thefirst day ofspring, but WHY DO WE USETHE MOON?"
jello13091: 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
jello13091: 46:6 And in the day of the new moon [it shall be] a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish.
jello13091: It says so in the Bible
jello13091: 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
jello13091: 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
jello13091: 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:
jello13091: 3:5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD
iwillgonow: hang on
jello13091: 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
jello13091: 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
iwillgonow: ok, u can stop, he's giving more of an answer
iwillgonow: but not fully
jello13091: 0:33 For the showbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy [things], and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and [for] all the work of the house of our God.
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: ok, we use the equinox because its a beginning, first day of spring...
iwillgonow: and the new moon because its the beginning of thelunar year
jello13091: 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
iwillgonow: the question he still wants us toanswer is why we use them together.....
jello13091: because we're supposed to
jello13091: we can't just disregard one and us the other
jello13091: forget the sun, use the moon!
jello13091: doesn't work!
iwillgonow: ihave this halfway functioning thought in my head and i can't get it to become coherent
jello13091: put part of it up and i can see if i can help
iwillgonow: but it goes along w/ what you said.. you have to use both, because everything was originally built with both in mind
iwillgonow: ooh, , i think we're in the right direction
jello13091: Yeah, before the flood, both were used.
jello13091: why would we suddenly only use one?
jello13091: It is kind of like the fairness issue
iwillgonow: "and how did we use both?" because they were created to work togheter
iwillgonow: together
iwillgonow: because everything used to be in harmony
jello13091: the sun and the moon were in pefect harmony
iwillgonow: "how? how did we use both? HOW?"
jello13091: solar and lunar times worked together also
jello13091: day and night were equal to begin with
jello13091: we weren'
jello13091: t at a tilt
iwillgonow: "i don't want a history lesson, i want to know HOW WE USED BOTH"
iwillgonow: grr.
jello13091: God used both...the earth rotated and that's how they were used.
jello13091: brb, heating up the oven
iwillgonow: this is gonna be so blatantly obvious when we finally get it that i'm gonna scream...
jello13091: i agree
jello13091: i'm back by the way
iwillgonow: b
iwillgonow: err... wb
jello13091: the earth rotated.....that is how they were used
jello13091: we used both in night and day
iwillgonow: "how... how... how??"
jello13091: Jen, you do know that he's going to make us explain this all over again when we figure it out
iwillgonow: yeah, i'm notlooking forward tothat
jello13091: how were they used? God put them in the sky and let them shine
iwillgonow: Just answer the question and stop wasting time: How did we use the two together?
jello13091: day and night
iwillgonow: The vernal equinox and the new moon.
jello13091: oh
jello13091: one deals with the sun which works with the seasons ,and the other deals with the moon which controls the years
iwillgonow: how do you elaborate on how to "use"something... you just USE IT...... you look at the dates of the equinox and new moons and you deduce from that whenthebeginning ofthe year is
iwillgonow: and still he repeats "how?"
iwillgonow: how.. you deduce it by looking at the dates, seeing how they relate to each other
iwillgonow: "how dothey relate to each other?"
iwillgonow: ...
iwillgonow: does julie have any ideas on what i'm missinghere?
jello13091: let me think
jello13091: the new moon occurs on the vernal equinox
iwillgonow: no...
jello13091: or very close to it
iwillgonow: ya
iwillgonow: Here's the next big clue, and this should give it all away, BUUT, when I say it, you have to explain, and I mean explain, completely. Here's you clue: Compromise.
jello13091: they are a tandem (using your favorite word), they work together?
iwillgonow: How?
iwillgonow: How did we use the two together using your big clue?
jello13091: the new moon follows after the vernal equinox
iwillgonow: How did we use the two together, considering the huge, big, gigantic hint word "compromise?"
jello13091: They worked together as a tandem
iwillgonow: compromise... ok, obviously the year can't start twice.. so we had to use the two to come up with a compromise for the beginning of the year.
iwillgonow: "and what was thecompromise?" ...
iwillgonow: that the year would start at the new moonclosest tothe equinox
iwillgonow: "meaning..."
iwillgonow: meaning...?
jello13091: that the year satrted at the new moon closest to the vernal equinox....what was just typed
iwillgonow: idont knowwhat part of that he wants us to elaborate
iwillgonow: "what does that do in effect?"
iwillgonow: it gives us a basis for starting the year
jello13091: it helps the lunar and solar stuff work together
iwillgonow: yes
iwillgonow: he said YES!
iwillgonow: "now tell me how"
jello13091: let me faint!
iwillgonow: i almost did
jello13091: how the lunar and solar work together?
iwillgonow: yeah
iwillgonow: how does the vernal equinox andthe newmoon give us a basis for startingthe year that helps the lunar/solarstuff work together?
iwillgonow: i think.
iwillgonow: and i seriously detest this space bar
jello13091: Wait what is the exact question?
iwillgonow: the one i just said
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: "and in answering this question we're going to answer theoriginalquestion which is going to answerthefirst question."
jello13091: what was the original question?
iwillgonow: original question was his 'why did we begin, using what, why' question
iwillgonow: and the first question ishow to keep sabbaths in theirproper time/season
jello13091: my head is so full and i have no idea what to say
jello13091: my dinner is going to be ready in 6 minutes, should we wait and take an eating break? or try to start this right now?
iwillgonow: i think we're really close.. so i'd like totry toget as far as we can now
jello13091: ok, go ahead and start whatever off if you like
jello13091: I dont know where to begin
iwillgonow: we're not really starting anything yet, we're just tryingto finish thatlast question
jello13091: well, start the answer
iwillgonow: how do the two things make the lunar/solar stuff wok together?
jello13091: the new moon works with the lunar stuff
iwillgonow: it ... makes them relative to each other instead of something else, maybe
iwillgonow: i dunno
jello13091: the lunar and the solar are compromising
jello13091: the lunar year starts at a close point with the solar year.
iwillgonow: "i can answer this question in 4 words" why do i suddenly think of 'name that tune'?
jello13091: They had to compromise
iwillgonow: yeah, because there can't be two different beginnings
iwillgonow: but how did they compromise...
jello13091: the year starts at the new moon closest to the vernal equinox. the solar year starts somehow with the lunar year.
jello13091: we can't start the solar and lunar year at two different times
jello13091: so we need to start them together
iwillgonow: ya, we've already said that...
iwillgonow: Julie, answer the word HOW.
jello13091: yeah, i know, just thinking out loud to try to add something on
iwillgonow: Don't state the facts for the umpteenth time, answer the question HOW.
jello13091: stating them helps me
iwillgonow: yeah, talk over here so we can keep it all on one screen
jello13091: how lunar and solar work together.....HOW HOW HOW
iwillgonow: how do the equinox and new moon make them work together
jello13091: well with the new moon, it would make them work by causing us to go with the lunar year, beginning with no moon appearing. The vernal equinox...day and night are equal, beginning......i don't know how solar stuff fits in
iwillgonow: the equinox is the beginning of the spring, beginning of the logical first season. the new moonn is the beginning of the lunar year...
jello13091: that is what is stumping me
jello13091: and like I mentioned earlier , you cant have the beginning of spring in march and then bust out with a so called lunar year beginning in sept.
iwillgonow: jacob wants me to correct what i said...... A new moon must begin a lunar year. nothing else can begin a lunar year..
iwillgonow: so the grand COMPROMISE here is that ..... in orderto try and make the lunar year andthe 4 seasons coincide, we take the new moon closest to the equinox which ...
jello13091: begins the lunar year
iwillgonow: shouldnt that prevent the lunar and solar stuff from having problems tho?
jello13091: no, or else we wouldn't have a problem
iwillgonow: i think i'm being redundand, but oh well.. we take the new moon closest to the equinox. which in my mind should ..... yeah, i know, but isnt itjust like jacob to make us work for hours when there isnt actually a problem?
jello13091: yeah really
iwillgonow: altho he says thereis a problem
iwillgonow: even if it is the closest day, its not the same day, so we do still have a problem...
jello13091: where is the problem because earlier, we saw that it wasn't in the tilt because it would barely change
iwillgonow: ok, my "so the grand compromise...." sentence up there is what jacob is focusing on now
iwillgonow: he wants that sentence finished. "...we take the new moon closest tothe equinox, which DOES WHAT?"
jello13091: which makes the year start at the beginning of spring/rebirth
jello13091: which makes the two things work together
iwillgonow: "no, if the lunar year startedat thebeginningof spring, it would start onthe sameday. how? HOW does itmake them worktogether?"
jello13091: i just don't know
iwillgonow: i dont know either
jello13091: brb
iwillgonow: k
jello13091: back
iwillgonow: take the new moon closest to the equinox..... compromise...... thats compromising on the two different beginnings, whiich does SOMETHING that we obviously can't put our finger on yet
iwillgonow: we're trying toanswer the questions "why did we begin theyear the way we did,what did we use and why..." and "how do we keep the sabbathsin their proper seasons/times".
jello13091: "...we take the new moon closest to the equinox, which..." causes us to not start in the middle of a year or season, wait, wouldn't taking the new moon closest either give us more or less time in case the solar and lunar stuff are off
jello13091: ?
jello13091: then what if we got like a couple extra days for them to get back insync
iwillgonow: "more or less time for what?"
jello13091: more or less time to get the seasons and years complete
jello13091: to finish the full cycle
iwillgonow: You're ahead of yourself.
iwillgonow: Answer these first.
jello13091: I htought i was, how am i ahead?
iwillgonow: Take the new moon closest to the equinox, which...
iwillgonow: Does what?
iwillgonow: What does that do?
jello13091: gives us leeway time
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: It ________ the ________.
iwillgonow: That's the four letter answer.
jello13091: causes us to start at a beginning and not the end or middle
iwillgonow: *word
jello13091: helps?
jello13091: works?
jello13091: more hints
iwillgonow: he's not giving any
jello13091: i've got to get energy in my body
jello13091: Jacob, we don';t know
jello13091: how do we figure this out???
iwillgonow: "think about the problem," he says...
jello13091: we've been thinking about it for the past 5 hours
iwillgonow: "take the new moon closest to the equinox, what does it do? think about the problem.."
iwillgonow: what does it do in reference to the problem.....
jello13091: when we take the new moon closest to the vernal equinox, it allows for a compromise to be made. it gives us more or less time to make it equal
iwillgonow: "how are we going to make it equal? what are you talking about?"
jello13091: what are we trying to make equal
jello13091: lets start there
jello13091: and then lets figure out what equals what
iwillgonow: i'd love to see what you're saying, butjacob is in the way...
iwillgonow: the equal thing wasinresponse to what you said... i'm not sure whatu were talking about
jello13091: WHat are we trying to make eqyal
iwillgonow: "we take the new moon closest to the equinox, which ____ the ____." <== i dont know, but thats the statement we're trying to work ont
iwillgonow: on*
jello13091: which compliments the lunar and solar calendars
iwillgonow: wha..?
jello13091: dont know
iwillgonow: nor do i
jello13091: which makes everything work together
jello13091: what are we missing
jello13091: i think it's time for a hint!
iwillgonow: Which optimizes the ____.
iwillgonow: year, date, seasons, what could go in that blank?
jello13091: time
jello13091: or the length
iwillgonow: explain
jello13091: oh no!
jello13091: k let me think
jello13091: it's like what i said earlier, it helps out with the length, because we can afford to be a couple days off
iwillgonow: so you're saying that like... if this year ended up 5 days short, but next year had 5 extra days, it would all even itself out in the end, right?
jello13091: what does optimize mean>
jello13091: no.
iwillgonow: optimize = to get the full effect of something
jello13091: I don;t know how to explain it
iwillgonow: Julie, you said the word "Time," what does it do to time?
jello13091: i've already screammed 10 times over
iwillgonow: JULIE WHAT DOES IT DO TO TIME?
jello13091: oh i thought we were going with length'
jello13091: it equals time
iwillgonow: ...........................................................................................................................
jello13091: creates time
iwillgonow: Optimizes, maybe?
jello13091: causes time
jello13091: optimizes time
jello13091: helps time
jello13091: allows time
iwillgonow: OPtimzes was it.
iwillgonow: Genius.
jello13091: oh
iwillgonow: What does it do when you take the new moon cloest to the vernal equinox?
jello13091: it optimizes time
iwillgonow: It optimizes the gap.
iwillgonow: All this time for that.
iwillgonow: Now answer the two questions.
jello13091: ......i said that before....it makes up for any difference that could occur
iwillgonow: "it doesnt make up for the difference"
jello13091: what are the two qeustion??!?! and when we answer then, we're moving on
iwillgonow: question 1 = why did we begin the year when we did, using what and why
iwillgonow: q2 =how do we observe the sabbaths in their proper time/season
iwillgonow: we began the year when we did because we used the vernal equinox and the closest new moon to determine a time to start the year that would optimize the gap between the 2 beginnings.
jello13091: i dont know how to answer these.....and i know we just went over everything
iwillgonow: ok, he said yes to that onhe
jello13091: good
iwillgonow: one*
iwillgonow: and he wants u to answer the2nd one
jello13091: great.....
iwillgonow: You were warned and you knew you'd have to reiterrate these points.
iwillgonow: Answer the question you have be asked.
jello13091: ok let me think
jello13091: i thought all the stuff we covered only answered the first quiestion
iwillgonow: thats whati thought too
iwillgonow: It's a two word answer.
iwillgonow: A very simple idea.
jello13091: optimize length
jello13091: compromise
iwillgonow: Compromise is one word.
iwillgonow: We ________.
jello13091: i know
jello13091: study
jello13091: we see
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: No.
jello13091: we leasrn
iwillgonow: No.
jello13091: we deduct
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: I already said it and STILL you can't answer me with what I just said.
iwillgonow: We o_______.
jello13091: ptimize
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: How?
jello13091: i said that before
iwillgonow: How?
iwillgonow: No you didn
iwillgonow: 't.
iwillgonow: I SAID HOW.
iwillgonow: HELLO?
jello13091: it optimizes the gap
iwillgonow: We optimize by optimzing the gap?
iwillgonow: Here's the answer, since you don't know it, which means you do, in a way.
iwillgonow: I dunno.
jello13091: compromise
iwillgonow: Nope.
jello13091: we optimize by compromising
iwillgonow: The Jews added a month to make up for the days.
iwillgonow: The Christians said forget it.
iwillgonow: So what do we do to count for those in between days?
iwillgonow: We've optimized, but that isn't perfect.
jello13091: we make up for them
iwillgonow: how?
iwillgonow: Like the Jews?
iwillgonow: Add a month to the year whenever we feel like it?
jello13091: we make it up by starting on the new moon closest to the vernal equinox.
iwillgonow: Or just let those days not exist like the Christians?
iwillgonow: THAT IS NOT PERFECT, THAT'S JUST AS CLOSE AS WE CAN GET.
iwillgonow: THERE ARE STILL DAYS LEFT IN BETWEEN UNACCOUNTED FOR.
jello13091: of course, he hides that till the end
iwillgonow: Julie, the answer is you don't know the answer, and neither do I.
iwillgonow: Without a perfect harmony, to do anything that would "fix it" would be altering the year or adding a month or changing dates arbitrarily.
iwillgonow: It's NOT ok to NOT know something you've already been taught extensively!!!!!!
jello13091: i knew that i didnt know it!
iwillgonow: You get the difference?
iwillgonow: Do you get the difference?
iwillgonow: I said do you get the difference?
iwillgonow: yes or no?
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: Good.
iwillgonow: "I knew I didn't know..." you are wrong wrong wrong.
jello13091: ummm ok
iwillgonow: Alright, we're done with this, and ready to start with the new point in question, so go eat.

iwillgonow: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalright
iwillgonow: Next problem.
jello13091: no, no more problems
jello13091: no more tonight at least
iwillgonow: No problem? GREAT! Let's get started.
jello13091: NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
jello13091: not work out more problems, just study other stuff or something
iwillgonow: Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike?
jello13091: i doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon't knoooooooooooooooooooooo
jello13091: w
iwillgonow: Oh well, onto the problem then...
jello13091: give us the problem abd then we'll see....
jello13091: what happened to doing to calendar?
iwillgonow: Tell me how to make the lunar year and four seasons stay cool.
jello13091: no, no more with seaosn tonight
iwillgonow: That is the problem, and the next step in doing the calendar, as is everything we've done today.
iwillgonow: Preparation.
jello13091: the lunar year and the 4 seasons work because God lets them work
iwillgonow: Jennifer thinks it's not fair for you to figure this out.
iwillgonow: because his mom just told usthe answer
jello13091: oh, that really isn't fair
iwillgonow: Just like I did.
iwillgonow: I don't accept her answer until I REASON it through.
iwillgonow: Jennfier just wants it to be easy for you.
jello13091: I want it to be easy also.
jello13091: Ok
jello13091: please tell me the answer
iwillgonow: If my mom is right, so are you, sort of. God has it worked out so that there's a 13th month every so often
iwillgonow: and then it all takescare ofitself
iwillgonow: thats what weneed to studyout, tho, to see ifthe 13th month fixes things
jello13091: that is really heavy, can we save that for another time'
jello13091: ?
jello13091: Please?
jello13091: CAn't we make a calendar and then that will lead to seeing about a 13th month
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: My mom's idea is NOT an intercalary month like the Jewish calendar, keep that in mind.
jello13091: SO what is it like then?
jello13091: my head hurts
iwillgonow: It is simply a continuation of the year, from 12 to 13, IF and ONLY if the new moon requires that the difference of days between it and the vernal equinox is substantial enough.
iwillgonow: NOT a double-Adar or something.
jello13091: which means it would have to take a couple of years to build up to that point.
iwillgonow: With is purely subjective and chosen based on who knows what.
iwillgonow: Perhaps.
iwillgonow: But I don't think so.
jello13091: Maybe that's something we're not supposed to know.
iwillgonow: NOPE, you're wrong.
iwillgonow: If we can't figure it out, we can't keep any of the Sabbaths at their appointed times.
jello13091: ok
jello13091: please, can we really save this for another time?
iwillgonow: And do what instead?
jello13091: i dont know
iwillgonow: Oh well then, onto the next step in the Calendar process...
jello13091: Jen, you have any ideas?
iwillgonow: nope
jello13091: there are plenty of things we can study
jello13091: study parts of the Bible
iwillgonow: Study what?
iwillgonow: Study what?
jello13091: the contradictions
jello13091: study ANY PART of it
iwillgonow: We're at a stalemate on that 700/7000 one
jello13091: and that means we can't move on to another one?
iwillgonow: Do you have them with you?
iwillgonow: I don't.
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: Jennifer has some.
iwillgonow: The first three pages.
jello13091: Jacob, we made copies for you
iwillgonow: Which we've answered.
jello13091: you should have the same as her
iwillgonow: I gave my copies away.
jello13091: TO WHO???
iwillgonow: To my mom.
jello13091: wait, i dont want to do this cause i dont have that bible program
iwillgonow: D/l it.
jello13091: give it like 2 weeks, and then i should be back on my computer with all my stuff on it
iwillgonow: THEN WE ARE BACK TO THE CALENDAR PROCESS, HUH?
jello13091: i almost need the blueletterbible website which will run way too slow
jello13091: ok Jacob, how do we make the lunar year and the four seasons work?
iwillgonow: Supposedly, if a 13th month is needed at the end, then just have it until the new moon closest to the vernal equinox comes, and then make month number one again.
iwillgonow: Which means that 13th month may be only a few days.
iwillgonow: no, i think he's wrong there,hang on
jello13091: of course he would be after i wrtie it down
iwillgonow: heh, sorry, he didnt give me the keyboard soon enough
jello13091: So what is right then?
iwillgonow: seems to me that a month is a month is a month. you cant have a month thats only a few days, because a "month" is a moon phase... right?
iwillgonow: new moon to new moon,
jello13091: Yeah
jello13091: i dont see how adding a month with only a few days is any different from what the Jews did.
iwillgonow: lemme see if i can explain it the way i understood it, while jacob tries to figure out what in the world he's talking about
iwillgonow: a year has to have at least 12 months
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: so we have 12 full months
iwillgonow: the month after the 12th can either be a 13th month, or the first month of the next year
jello13091: with a set number of days in each?
iwillgonow: depends on the length of the moons phases
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: if in that next month the equinox occurs on the 2nd day, its obviously closest to the end of the previous month, so thatmonth would begin the next year
iwillgonow: BUT
iwillgonow: if the equinox didnt occur til the 20th day, it'd be closer to the end of that month,so the closest new moon wouldnt be til the end of that month.... which would mean the new year couldnt start until the end of that month, making it a 13thmonth
iwillgonow: make sense?
jello13091: ummm
iwillgonow: his mom drew us a picture... : \
jello13091: wouldnt it make it the first month
jello13091: ?
jello13091: yall will just have to snail mail me a copy
iwillgonow: if the equinox is closerto the end of the month, then its closest to the newmoon after it, instead of the one before it....so the one after it would start the new year
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: make sense now?
jello13091: kind of
jello13091: oh yeah it does
iwillgonow: i dont think jacobthinks i'm right tho...what part could i better explain?
iwillgonow: ok
jello13091: so now what?
iwillgonow: jacob has research that says a lunar year (12 new moons) is approx 354 days, while a solar year is approx 365 days... so there has to be an extra month added in to keep the sabbaths from falling behind by approx 11 more days every year.....
iwillgonow: which would bring them out of their season.... passover would end up happening in winter, then fall,then eventually summer and back to spring...
jello13091: hmmmmmmm
iwillgonow: lunar months are generally 29.5 days
jello13091: I have alot of month stuff....that was one of the first things i worked on
iwillgonow: in a cycle of 19 years, if 7 months are added, the holy days will remain in their proper seasons
iwillgonow: thus,every 2 or 3 years in the 19 year cycle,there must be an added 13th month
jello13091: so could that be it then?
iwillgonow: (im writing what he's reading from his research)
iwillgonow: at the end of ever 19 years, earth,moon, and sun will come into almost exact conjunction
jello13091: tell him to just type a mini paper for me
iwillgonow: once every 19 years, therewill be a new moon on the equinox
iwillgonow: so in 19 years, there will be 12 regular years,and 7 13- month years
jello13091: well where are we at now?
iwillgonow: dunno yet
iwillgonow: he pulled all this from biblestudy.og
jello13091: There is a month called Elul that has no definite month number
iwillgonow: org
jello13091: He typed what i just said on a sheet once
jello13091: 1st Month-Abib, Nisan
jello13091: 2nd- Zif
jello13091: 3rd-Sivan
jello13091: 4th- no name
jello13091: 5th-no name
jello13091: 6th- no name
jello13091: 7th- Ethanim
iwillgonow: idunno... he just said in response to you that elul must not be for orthodox jews,cuz what he has now says that the 13th month is adar 2
jello13091: 8th- Bul
jello13091: JACOB, YOU GAVE ME THE SHEETS I'MLOOKING OFF OF
jello13091: 9th- Chisleu
jello13091: 10th- Tebeth
jello13091: 11th- Sebat
jello13091: 12th- Adar
jello13091: Elul has no number by it
iwillgonow: he just realized thathe gave that sheet to u
jello13091: And it could be the 4-6th month, yet Elul is found in Nehemiah and nothing in 4-6 is mmentioned in that
iwillgonow: and elul could be one of the months with no names..... yeah
iwillgonow: hmm
jello13091: I have right here all the proof of what the Jews believe and how it's wrong
jello13091: point of departure from the biblical clendaar is in Dueteronomy 16:1 (passover in the month of Aviv )
jello13091: i got all this from a jewish book that i wish i had with me right now
jello13091: jewish authorities added months
jello13091: it said that the jewish calendr is lunr-solar because some festivls must occur in the right time of year (harvesting in spring, etc.)
jello13091: lunar=354, solar=365 -> rabbis combined them
iwillgonow: ya, he's reading more right now about them addingdays to keep certain days from falling where they didnt want them to.....
jello13091: they adopted intercalation-harmonization of the solar nd lunar calendars
jello13091: brb
jello13091: back
iwillgonow: wb
jello13091: what exactly is he doing now?
jello13091: man i'm getting tired of typing
iwillgonow: now he's got something that says pentecost is always on a monday
jello13091: oh no
iwillgonow: i think its talking about ... hang on
jello13091: k
iwillgonow: there's some 6.5 minute difference somwhere thatover some 2000+ year period, will make pentecost on a monday..???
jello13091:
iwillgonow: i think its not true... they want u to go findsome book about it to figure it out
iwillgonow: i think we already have biblical proofthat itson a sunday
jello13091: he said biblestudy.org. had problems with a couple of things before
jello13091: ok good then
iwillgonow: we counted this out about 10 times last week, didntwe?
iwillgonow: 7 sabbaths from the day after, and one moreday.....or whatever it said..... is always going tobe a sunday\
jello13091: yeah

 

06/09/01

iwillgonow: The Roman Calendar has not disrupted the weekly cycle instituted since creation. The Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), is made for man, Mark 2:27-28 to be a sign that He is our Mighty One and we are His people, Exodus 31:13-17. It is a type of the millennial rest of the Kingdom of God on this earth, Hebrews 4:1-11. We are to abstain from gainful employment during the Sabbath. Prior to the Sabbath we are to have our house in order, with heavy baking and meal preparation done as much as possible in advance. In this way, the Sabbath is a delight for the entire family, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13-14. As a holy time for physical rest, spiritual fellowship and extra Bible study and prayer, the Sabbath should be the crowning point of the week for every true believer.
iwillgonow: So if you're going to have a feast, what day should it be made on?
psycho314t: not on the sabbath