04/28/01

08/04/01

1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
psycho314t: 1d3) to see about something
1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold
1e) to experience any state or condition
1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
2a) to know of anything
2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
2b1) of any fact
2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
2b3) to know how, to be skilled in
2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
psycho314t: AV - death 117, deadly 2; 119
1) the death of the body
1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1b1) the power of death
1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest
darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
iwillgonow: He died but he did not know death?
psycho314t: 2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell
psycho314t: but we dont "know" death either, do we? its just an instance of sleep and then its over..?
iwillgonow: ...................................................
iwillgonow: How can you die and not know death?
psycho314t: i mean we dont know we're dead
iwillgonow: What's the meaning.
iwillgonow: No.
jello13091: when you die, your thoughts stop
iwillgonow: That's incorrect.
jello13091: so you don't know anything
iwillgonow: That's true for anybody that when you die you're dead and you don't know anything.
iwillgonow: But Enoch was special.
iwillgonow: He did not "know" death.
iwillgonow: That's not said of anyone else.
psycho314t: Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
psycho314t: thats the only other time "see death" is even used regarding a specific person
iwillgonow: ?
iwillgonow: WHAT DOES IT MEAN!!!
iwillgonow: I don't get it.
psycho314t: nor do i
iwillgonow: tg"Not see death," what is it!
jello13091: Maybe not to see death of others who were close to him
jello13091: i dont know
psycho314t: i was sorta thinking that too
psycho314t: We know from Jude 14-15 that Enoch preached powerful sermons in a wicked and perverse time just before the Flood.
psycho314t: Jude:1:14: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
psycho314t: why would that have to be in the time just before the flood?
iwillgonow: Doesn't.
psycho314t: thats what i thought
iwillgonow: Cept Enoch lived b4 the flood, that's their reasoning.
psycho314t: yeah... he lived 600+ years b4 the flood...
psycho314t: they were saying he couldnt have been taken to heaven then, cuz he was preaching right b4 the flood
iwillgonow: flabergasted
iwillgonow: dieseedeathno
iwillgonow: ?
jello13091: what
iwillgonow: lksafiojweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeefoijfoiwjeefffffffffjjjjjjjjjjjjjj;
iwillgonow: awefffoi;hgj;
jello13091: oh ok
jello13091: of course
iwillgonow: idunooowwwwhatitmeans
iwillgonow: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
jello13091: JUDE 9 Michael contended with Satan for the body of Moses. Why would Satan want the body of Moses if his spirit had already gone to heaven? Why? Because Jesus wanted to resurrect Moses, and Satan wanted Moses to stay dead.
jello13091: ECCLESIASTES 9:5,6,10 “For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing. Their love, their hate, their envy, is perished. JOB 7:9,10 “He who goes down to the grave, does not come up. He will not return again to his house.” PSALM 146:4 “His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”
jello13091: 8. CAN THE DEAD COMMUNICATE AT ALL? ISAIAH 38:18 “For the dead cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for (to be helped) thy truth.” [Prayers or baptism for the dead are useless.] PSALM 115:17 “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.”
jello13091: 11. AREN’T THERE HUMAN BEINGS ALIVE IN HEAVEN NOW? YES! First: Christ (Rev. 2:8, LUKE 24:26-39). Second: Enoch was translated without seeing death (Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5). Third: Moses was resurrected by Christ just after he died, and taken to heaven (JUDE 9). Fourth: Elijah was translated without seeing death (II KINGS 2:11). Fifth: Many Saints - a representative group from all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples, were resurrected by Christ, after He was resurrected by His Father. These people ascended with Christ from the Mount of Olives (Matt. 27:51-53, Eph. 4:8). [These were many saints, but not all of them.]
jello13091: hmmmm....didn;t we just say that they weren't in heaven?
jello13091: hello???? Is anybody out there?
psycho314t: yeah, im still here..
jello13091: ok
jello13091: I thought that i was disconnected again or something!
psycho314t: where'd those last couple things come from?
jello13091: http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/death.shtml

08/10/01

08/10/01

1) heaven, heavens, sky
1a) visible heavens, sky
1a1) as abode of the stars
1a2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)
jello13091: the other verse saying no one has ascended is somewhere in John i think
iwillgonow: Post it.
jello13091: I don;t know where it is
psycho314t: John:3:13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
iwillgonow: Houston we have problem.
jello13091: No man had ascended into Heaven heaven, the 3rd Heaven
jello13091: Does that say that no man ascended into ANY Heaven?
iwillgonow: Julie, the ISSUE here is whether he went to Heaven Heaven Heaven or whether he stayed on earth and died.
psycho314t: if he ascended into one of the first 2 heavens, he would have to come back to earth and died
jello13091: But we know he was taken
psycho314t: yet it says he didnt see death
jello13091: Are there two different meanings of die and deatH?
psycho314t: we looked at that last week, i dont think we came up w/ anything
iwillgonow: Jennifer found another person who "didn't see death," but what, did they die, I can't remember.
psycho314t: uh... dont remember
jello13091: How can you not see death and die?
psycho314t: lemme find it again
iwillgonow: Got me.
psycho314t: .. that is the problem
jello13091: Could it be spiritual and pyhsical or something like that
jello13091: Like body and soul
iwillgonow: If one dies the other dies.
iwillgonow: You get run over by train, you dead soul-wise.
iwillgonow: And body-wise of course.
jello13091: Could he have died and had his body be resting in another heaven
psycho314t: what, u think his body is floating around in space?
iwillgonow: Like a floating corpse, WHAT ARE YOU SAYING WOMAN.
jello13091: I dont know!
jello13091: Just giving possibilities
psycho314t: oh. the other "not see death" was talking about simeon
iwillgonow: Look, we got some basics to build on here.
psycho314t: it said he was promised that he wouldnt see death until he saw Jesus
iwillgonow: Well he died.
iwillgonow: See death=die.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: WE KNOW that when you're dead, you are dead.
iwillgonow: Dead as a door nail.
iwillgonow: So these ppl who don't "see death," do they die or not?
montaro86: WHAT!? does that mean my door nail is dead? :*(
iwillgonow: Pretty much.
montaro86: Oh.
psycho314t: simeon's not see death was conditional tho
psycho314t: i didnt see any conditions with elijah's
iwillgonow: But we know for sure that Simeon died, right?
psycho314t: i'll check
psycho314t: oh. i remembered that passage wrong. after he saw baby Jesus, he says, "Lord, now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy word:
iwillgonow: Well this is something.
iwillgonow: Didn't have to have a "Bible contradictions" webpage to find this one.
iwillgonow: So I doubt we'll find a rebuttal online either.
psycho314t: Luke:2:26: And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
psycho314t: i thought julie did find a rebuttal of sorts
iwillgonow: And then he died.
iwillgonow: see death
iwillgonow: diediedie
psycho314t: right
jello13091: if you wait, i'll give whatevber i know
psycho314t: it doesnt say he died, but it doenst say "he should not see death at all", either
psycho314t: The Bible Account of Risen and Translated Saints Helps to Clarify This Concept.
JUDE 9 Michael contended with Satan for the body of Moses. Why would Satan want the body of Moses if his spirit had already gone to heaven? Why? Because Jesus wanted to resurrect Moses, and Satan wanted Moses to stay dead.
II KINGS 2:11,12,16,7 Elijah went up in the chariot to heaven. The empty shell of his body didn’t fall back to earth. His body was changed “in a moment” (I Cor. 15:52) as he was taken up into heaven.
NOTE: [Moses was a type of those who will be resurrected when Christ returns. Elijah is a type of those who will be living to see Christ come, and will be translated without seeing death. On the Mount of Transfiguration Christ stood with Moses and Elijah. This was a miniature representati
psycho314t: This was a miniature representation of His coming kingdom. MARK 9:2-4 ]
psycho314t: http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/death.shtml the link julie pasted last week
iwillgonow: Ah! The transfiguration on the mount!
iwillgonow: I forgot about that!
iwillgonow: That was no vision, Jesus did not be with dead ppl's spirits, that was REAL.
psycho314t: i was just looking it up.. i dont remember it
iwillgonow: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
iwillgonow: How'd he be with them if they were dead?
iwillgonow: Or not resurrected?
iwillgonow: Ghosts?
iwillgonow: Nah.
iwillgonow: See why didn't the punk who wrote this article state the opposition's points so we could see what he says about that?
iwillgonow: Most ppl who've talked against the mount thing say it was a vision.
jello13091: oy, willyall give me a couple of minutes to catch up?
jello13091: Will someone please sned me this convo. I have to go.
psycho314t: sure
jello13091: thanks, hopefully i'll be on in an hour or two
jello13091: see yall later
Yahoo! Messenger: jello13091 has left the conference.
iwillgonow: Yall do some talking, my mind is blown.
psycho314t: im still trying to piece it all together
psycho314t: when Jesus said no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. He was on earth.. and He hadnt ascended yet...?
iwillgonow: Jesus said that?
psycho314t: and perhaps the difference is between ascended and taken
psycho314t: yeah, He said it to nicodemus i think
iwillgonow: I don't think Jesus said He was in Heaven when He was on earth, that'd be weird.
psycho314t: thats what i thought
psycho314t: John:3:10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
John:3:11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
John:3:12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John:3:13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
psycho314t: thats what caught my attention. it was in john 3, He had to have been still on earth
iwillgonow: blueletterbible on Son of man there
psycho314t: its split... Son / of man
iwillgonow: Both results.
psycho314t: AV - son(s) 85, Son of Man + 444 87 {TDNT 8:400, 1210},
Son of God + 2316 49, child(ren) 49, Son 42, his Son + 848 21,
Son of David + 1138 15 {TDNT 8:478, 1210},

my beloved Son + 27 + 3350 7, thy Son + 4575 5,
only begotten Son + 3339 3, his (David's) son + 846 3,
firstborn son + 4316 2, misc 14; 382

1) a son
1a) rarely used for the young of animals
1b) generally used of the offspring of men
1c) in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
1d) in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
1d1) the children of Israel
1d2) sons of Abraham
psycho314t: 1e)) used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
1e1) a pupil
2) son of man
2a) term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality
2b) son of man, symbolically denotes the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7:13 and by this term its humanity is indicated in contrast with the barbarity and ferocity of the four preceding kingdoms (the Babylonian, the Median and the Persian, the Macedonian, and the Roman) typified by the four beasts. In the book of Enoch (2nd Century) it is used of Christ.
psycho314t: 2c) used by Christ himself, doubtless in order that He might intimate his Messiahship and also that He might designate himself as the head of the human family, the man, the one who both furnished the pattern of the perfect man and acted on behalf of all mankind. Christ seems to have preferred this to the other Messianic titles, because by its lowliness it was least suited to foster the expectation of an earthly Messiah in royal splendour.
3) son of God
3a) used to describe Adam (Lk. 3:38)
3b) used to describe those who are born again (Lk. 20:36) and of angels and of Jesus Christ
psycho314t: 3c) of those whom God esteems as sons, whom He loves, protects and benefits above others
3c1) in the OT used of the Jews
3c2) in the NT of Christians
3c3) those whose character God, as a loving father, shapes by chastisements (Heb. 12:5-8)
3d) those who revere God as their father, the pious worshippers of God, those who in character and life resemble God, those who are governed by the Spirit of God, repose the same calm and joyful trust in God which children do in their parents (Rom. 8:14, Gal. 3:26), and hereafter in the blessedness and glory of the life eternal will openly wear this dignity of the sons of God.
psycho314t: Term used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father's will in all his acts
psycho314t: AV - man 552, not tr 4, misc 3; 559

1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
psycho314t: 1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God 1g) with reference to sex, a male 2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one 3) in the plural, people 4) joined with other words, merchantman
iwillgonow: Well that helped not.
psycho314t: i know.. i figured you'd tell me to paste it anyway, so i didnt bother saying so
psycho314t: ehh.. we've got 2 different people mixed up, i think. altho that doenst really change anything
iwillgonow: ?
psycho314t: enoch was the one that didnt see death, but died
iwillgonow: Right.
psycho314t: elijah was the one that was taken to heaven, but wrote a letter
iwillgonow: Right.
psycho314t: ok

08/11/01

08/11/01

08/11/01

1) to die
1a) of the natural death of man
1b) of the violent death of man or animals
1c) to perish by means of something
1d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
1e) of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell
jello13091: 1c) to perish by means of something
iwillgonow: Well die means die, that's great.
jello13091: I wish I could think of how to explain this
jello13091: enoch did not see death on earth
iwillgonow: What other place could you see death???
jello13091: he was taken in faith
psycho314t: once you're translated, you're "clothed in immortality", arent you?
jello13091: he died as he was translated
iwillgonow: What?
iwillgonow: Where you getting this from
iwillgonow: ?
iwillgonow: Don't just speculate.
iwillgonow: Back this stuff up.
jello13091: What did translated mean?
psycho314t: AV - translate 2, carry over 1, remove 1, change 1, turn 1; 6