feast days (sabbaths): the day of atonement
09/28/01
iwillgonow: jacob says... what did u find out when u researched the day of atonement?
jello13091: I read about the not being in cities. read some of the Bible on Jesus and the crucifixition and stuff
iwillgonow: "i don't see day of atonement in any of those options."
jello13091: you learned about guardian angels....
jello13091: I read about the day of atonement and how we're living in it now
iwillgonow: yeah, we readthat lastweek
jello13091: I took a nap also
iwillgonow: so do u think itswrongthatwe kept the day of atonement, since we're living the antitype now?
jello13091: tomorrow when ever you guys get on, buzz me alot
jello13091: in case i'm sleeping
iwillgonow: lol, ok
jello13091: no
jello13091: because we're not really living in the antitype
jello13091: it's an analogy, isnt it
jello13091: like time is almost up.
jello13091: we should ALWAYS be repenting
jello13091: and searching our souls
jello13091: and finding and banishing our evil
jello13091: not just on that one day but in general too
iwillgonow: ya, but... the stuff we read was more specifically day of atonement ceremony related, like the cleansing of the sanctuary
jello13091: she was just accounting what happened back then on the day of atonement
jello13091: she doesnt say that it happened everyday.
jello13091: it was big once a year. but now, when the end is near, we should always be in that mindframe
iwillgonow: how the priest had to remove the sins of the children of israel from the sanctuary once a year, and... oh, what wasit.. thegreat disappointment of 1844, when they thought Jesus' secondcoming was at hand, but when it didnt happen and they reevaluatedthe prophecy, it meant that Christ had moved into the holy of holies to cleanse the sanctuary.. and the judgment began at that time
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: u don't get what im talking about, do u? i dont think i explained it very well
iwillgonow: u remember whatthegreat disappointment was?
jello13091: if this is the antitype, then we should be rpacticing the day of atonement everyday
jello13091: I kinda know what you're tlaking about
jello13091: I dont know much about the great disappointment
jello13091: but i understand what you were going for
iwillgonow: "but does that mean we should not keep the actual day of atonement every year?"
iwillgonow: even before Jesus moved into the holy of holies for the atonement stuff, people werestill supposed to be repentant andsoul searching allthetime
jello13091: that means we should be keeping it everyday
iwillgonow: ya, but...
jello13091: ya, but i dont know
iwillgonow: me neither
iwillgonow: i stink at explaining, and he doesntlike ur understanding skills either,... so he's leaving us on our own for this one
jello13091: I understand but i just dont know
iwillgonow: *tries to figure out where this should begoing*
iwillgonow: ok, define the day of atonement
iwillgonow: like, what it entails
iwillgonow: or asjacobis saying.. "are wesupposed to go outand fast and pray in a field every day til we DIE?"
jello13091: soul searching, repentance, asking God for forgiveness of all the bad things we;ve done, fasting
jello13091: thats what i;m saying!
jello13091: we shouldnt be doing that therefore this isnt the antitype
iwillgonow: i dont get how that relates...
iwillgonow: we know this is the antitype
iwillgonow: Reve:14:7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
jello13091: Just because Jesus started shedding His blood for us in Heaven, does that mean that we dont have to ask for His forgiveness? Does that relate at all?
iwillgonow: hrm. we're not on the same page anymore
jello13091: Jesus now went into the holiest..no more day of atonement. Jesus went to Heaven to shed His blood up there..we no longer need to ask?
jello13091: No.
iwillgonow: great, he's mad at me for stopping to think now..
iwillgonow: ok ok, back to the topic at hand... jacobs pacing is driving me nuts
jello13091: tell him to give us the answer
iwillgonow: he refuses
jello13091: Jacob.....
iwillgonow: the short term goal,he says, is to define day of atonement and whether or not the day is supposed to be kept yearly
iwillgonow: brb
jello13091: he knows
jello13091: and he is withholding knowledge from us
jello13091: not good....
iwillgonow: Don't start that stuff. You could say the same thing about Jesus while He was on the earth, because He only spoke in parables to the people, because they had to USE THEIR MINDS, etc etc etc...
jello13091: i'm just trying to psych you out
jello13091: this can tie into when Jesus died on the cross, part of the law like the sacrifices were abolished.
iwillgonow: haha. it didnt work, he's still pacing
jello13091: Obviuosly the Day of Atonement was not if it was done in the 1800s
iwillgonow: still not really seeing the correlation,...
jello13091: hmmm....those are the only two things i'm thinking
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: the short term goal,he says, is to define day of atonement and whether or not the day is supposed to be kept yearly
jello13091: I knOW!
iwillgonow: "DO WE KEEPTHE ACTUAL CEREMONIAL DAY OF ATONEMENT YEAR AFTER YEAR, YES OR NO?"
jello13091: YES\
jello13091: Levi:23:27: Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
jello13091: Levi:23:28: And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
iwillgonow: ok. if this is the antitype tho, why do we still keep it?
jello13091: I dont know
jello13091: why do we?
iwillgonow: i wish i knew
iwillgonow: hmm...
jello13091: cause its important
jello13091: we still need it
jello13091: to bring us back
iwillgonow: i tried the "because it says in leviticus that its a statute forever" but i get ignored everytime i tell him that
jello13091: to allow a second chance
iwillgonow: but we have the second chance every day, right?
iwillgonow: so... hmm.
jello13091: true, but sometimes having a specific day, one that has been around for awhile, helps people
jello13091: more
jello13091: like....
iwillgonow: that reminds me of the bad rep of like revivals and stuff
iwillgonow: ok, nowhe says thestatute forever thing is"worthy of discussion"
jello13091: Day of Atonement sounds like it's something that should be done. If i never repented before but I hear Day of Atonement, i begin to think , hmmm....maybe i should repent
iwillgonow: we are really making him upset... im getting the "im not always goingto be here to explainthings to you" speech
jello13091: But you are now
jello13091: where will you be then?!
iwillgonow: but it doesnt matter, because we need to figure thisout w/o him...
iwillgonow: just so we can make him be quiet
jello13091: good reason...
jello13091: give us a hint
iwillgonow: nah, he just walked off
jello13091: wha...?
iwillgonow: ok, he already said the statute forever thingwas worthy of discussion
iwillgonow: so lets go there
jello13091: I'm still missing how we're in the antitype
jello13091: like I understand that we're now in this period where Jesus is in the holiest
jello13091: but...
jello13091: does that neccessarliy mean we're in the antitype?
jello13091: and, we are suposed to be celebrating this or jacob wouldnt have let us
jello13091: and once we find the answer out we're not telling him!
iwillgonow: the type was the ceremonial cleansing of the holy of holies on the earthly sanctuary by the priest. it was foreshadowing the workthat had to be done in the heavenly sanctuary. soifthat work has begun... isntthat the antitype?
iwillgonow: hahaha, iwould agree,but if we dont prove that we got it, he'llneverleave us alone
jello13091: it was destroyed on earth
iwillgonow: wha?
jello13091: the earthly temple was destroyed or hidden or soemthing
iwillgonow: ya,but.. that doesnt really have anything todo w/this...?
iwillgonow: IHATE THIS KEYBOARD*
jello13091: man, ok
iwillgonow: so..r we giving up for tonight?
jello13091: it would be nice to finsih it
iwillgonow: ya,it would
jello13091: BUT TELL JACOB: WE DONT KNOW!
jello13091: when we're in class and we dont know certain things that the class is on, what happens?! The prof. explains them and teaches, TEACHES, us so that we know for the next time!
iwillgonow: he says we should already know what we're tryingtodo rightnow
iwillgonow: he wants us to regurgitate something so that he can get backtoteaching us
jello13091: regurgitate what?!
jello13091: wait....
jello13091: one sec
iwillgonow: something related why we keep day of atonement
jello13091: the temple was only cleasned once a year on the day of atonement, that being the only time to go into the holiest of holies.
jello13091: Is Jesus in the holiest everyday, or does He just know only go in on the Dof A
jello13091: ?
jello13091: to cleanse our souls
iwillgonow: and the currentleg ofthat discussion is whether or not this is the antitype. and... im getting a massive hint that we need to be going with the "statute forever" thing
iwillgonow: and its really hard to keep a train of thoughtwhenhe's screaminginmy ear
iwillgonow: ok, lemme answer that first
iwillgonow: or try
iwillgonow: the antitypical "day" of atonement is.... ongoing
jello13091: it's prob. a statute forever that we have the day of atonemtn until all passes away and there is no more sin and no more fogiveness of it
iwillgonow: AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH@!
jello13091: good argh or bad?
iwillgonow: if he could possibly just be quiet!
iwillgonow: i dont know where i'm even goinganymore
jello13091: JACOB....hush!
iwillgonow: ok... why why why why why...
iwillgonow: im gonna searchon "statute forever" while he goes and bangshis head onthe wall
jello13091: its forever because we should be and always will be asking for forgiveness till sin is blotted out
jello13091: Jesus died to fulfil the law, the Day of Atonement being a law
iwillgonow: right.. all the statutes forever are until theyre fulfilled.. and the need for atonement cant be fulfilled..?
jello13091: yeah, we still need atonement
jello13091: i said that before
jello13091: we'll need it until the sins are blotted out and there is no more evil
jello13091: Levi:16:29: And [this] shall be a statute for ever unto you: [that] in the seventh month, on the tenth [day] of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, [whether it be] one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
iwillgonow: i dont think thatsthe rightanswer
jello13091: Levi:16:31: It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
jello13091: poo
iwillgonow: jacobs givingmea horrendouslook
jello13091: Levi:16:34: And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
jello13091: there we go
iwillgonow: wait
jello13091: statute for ever in your generations:
iwillgonow: day of atonement ceremony has been fulfilled tho, if Jesus is in theholy ofholies
iwillgonow: or... maybe its not fulfilled until itscomplete?
jello13091: then we just majorly sinned
iwillgonow: jacob keeps bringing up the animal sacrifices
jello13091: for ever in our generations, our generations are not over yet\
iwillgonow: jacob keeps bringing up the animal sacrifices
jello13091: animal sacrifice was fulfilled because of the shedding of blood
jello13091: the reason it started was to froshadow in a sense
iwillgonow: thats what i said to him, and he goteven more exasperated
jello13091: Jacob, I really don't like it when you do this.
iwillgonow: hewent and laid down, so at least its quietnow
jello13091: his response: i dont like it when yall dont think
jello13091: and when i have to do everythign
iwillgonow: yep, thatwould be pretty much my guess as to what he'd say too
iwillgonow: so what could he be after that we'remissing...
jello13091: We need the D of A because we are not perfect and we still sin
jello13091: i dont know
jello13091: like we really dont know, and obviously the logic isnt coming toegther.
jello13091: youd think then he would tell us
jello13091: but of course not
iwillgonow: but he says if the d of a rituals are being performed in heaven currently, this should be the antitype and we shouldnt be doing d of a anymore..
jello13091: it's being done in heaven only once a year when it happens on earth!
iwillgonow: not according to what we read
iwillgonow: Jesus was in the outer.. part of the sanctuary up until 1844
iwillgonow: then the antitypical day of atonement began then, and he'sbeen there ever since
iwillgonow: she made a bigpoint of ppl who arelooking for Him in the outer area and are "knocking onaclosed door"
iwillgonow: b/c they dont realize He's gone elsewhere
iwillgonow: so i guess He's in the holy of holies until the d of a stuff iscomplete
jello13091: why is it not complete?
jello13091: CAUSE WE"RE STILL SINFUL
iwillgonow: this is the judgment phase, itgoes until the end of probation
iwillgonow: so yeah, thatleads back tothe previous thoughti had..
jello13091: so then DoA doesnt cease until the end of probation
iwillgonow: when we reach antitype, it would befulfilled. but if d/a stuff isnt completed, it wouldnt be fulfilled...
iwillgonow: yeah...
jello13091: so we havent reached antitype
iwillgonow: or, when antitypeis finished, it wouldbe fulfilled
iwillgonow: so antitype is going on, butnot done, so d/a isntfulfilled
iwillgonow: JACOB: ARE WE CLOSE?
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: yeah, i said that wrong. wehave reached it
iwillgonow: itsjust not done yet
jello13091: man...
iwillgonow: 1844
iwillgonow: d/a in heavenly sanctuary began then
iwillgonow: itgoes til probationcloses
iwillgonow: then antitype is complete and d/a is fulfilled
iwillgonow: YES OR NO JACOB?
jello13091: ok
jello13091: sounds good
iwillgonow: he wantsus to go back to the animal sacrifice commandments
iwillgonow: "BEFORE I DIE"
iwillgonow: were they "statutes forever"?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: r u sure?
jello13091: the stopped when Jesus fulfilled it
jello13091: ARE WE KILLING ANIMALS ANYMORE?!
iwillgonow: no, but does it say statutes forever
iwillgonow: in the bible
jello13091: forever as in Jesus takes the place and keeps doing it
iwillgonow: help me look and see if itsays "statute forever"with the animal sacrifices, thats what hewants us todo
jello13091: Levi:6:18: All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations concerning the offerings of the LORD made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy.
jello13091: thats all i found
jello13091: when i search statutes for ever
iwillgonow: yeah, i did the same.. nothing
jello13091: WE'RE STUCK JACOB.....
iwillgonow: now we have to go find the sin offering verses, and prove that its not with them
jello13091: ugh......
jello13091: Exod:30:10: And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it [is] most holy unto the LORD.
iwillgonow: ok.. thats the only one i see so far, too..
iwillgonow: apparently, we'rereally close
jello13091: i hope we are
iwillgonow: o. ok. thats related to d/a
iwillgonow: he wants something thats just for the general sin offering
jello13091: The sacrifice made on d/a was done away with
jello13091: cause now it's done by Jesus in Heaven
iwillgonow: Levi:5:19: It [is] a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD. OKJACOB, ITS A SIN OFFERING AND IT DOESNT SAY FOREVER
iwillgonow: NOW WHAT?
iwillgonow: lemme type what hesays
iwillgonow: ok, if the sin offerings DONT have a foreverthroughoutallyourgenerations thing,and we DONT dothem anymore....
jello13091: duh
iwillgonow: and d/a DOES have a foreverthroughoutallyourgenerations thing... whatdoes that say about the two?
jello13091: that we do it forever
iwillgonow: and i said that we should keep it still because its forever
jello13091: oh you stink!
iwillgonow: and he said "you get to sleep on it."
jello13091: nooooope
jello13091: because i dont think when i sleep
iwillgonow: haha
iwillgonow: blahhh
jello13091: i feel the same way
iwillgonow: do we want tokeep on or give in til tomorrow?
jello13091: honestly, i'll get online tomorrow and still not know
iwillgonow: yeah, same here
iwillgonow: we're just "one step away" from..... something but i dont think he'sgoing to let usleaveit there
jello13091: Jacob, promise that that one step is final and we will go one
iwillgonow: i would... but i'm the one that would have to hear him yell about it for whoknows how long
iwillgonow: "I SAID SLEEP ON IT"
09/13/04
jello13091: So I was thinking about atonement again and wondering if we ever resolved our issue with it last year, about how now Jesus is in the holiest of holies now all the time
iwillgonow: HELLO WORLD.
psycho314t: um, i don’t think we did
jello13091: we read a lot from Hebrews
jello13091: but I don't think we came to anything
psycho314t: brb
jello13091: so why not resolve this now finally!
jello13091: wait, we have something from 2001 on the site
jello13091: why don’t SDA keep atonement when it was them with the whole great disappointment thing
psycho314t: they don’t keep anything anymore
psycho314t: even the sabbath
jello13091: yeah, i know
jello13091: but atonement seems to hit my curiosity more than the others just because of their association with the great disappointment
psycho314t: why did they decide its not required to keep everything, do we know?
jello13091: Ellen didn't
jello13091: did she?
iwillgonow: Said they were thrown out with the other Old Testament goodies.
psycho314t: no, not her... well, she didn’t believe in tabernacles, did she?
psycho314t: but i thought it was more recent than that
iwillgonow: She recommended we do it, but did not say it was required.
jello13091: well, how did they get weeded out?
psycho314t: the sabbaths or the dwellings?
jello13091: sabbaths
iwillgonow: dwellings
iwillgonow: ELOHEL
psycho314t: 8-}
iwillgonow: SHE RECOMMENDED WE DO TABERNACLES JULIE, THAT MEANS DWELLINGS TEMPORARY.
jello13091: yeah, but i'm asking about why the holiday sabbaths got weeded out
jello13091: then yall need to join me this year outside
iwillgonow: The YEARLY Sabbaths got discounted cause they were fulfilled by Jesus or something like that.
jello13091: then why wasn't the regular sabbath?
iwillgonow: Ask them.
jello13091: iwillgonow: DoA in heavenly sanctuary began then
- iwillgonow: it goes till probation closes
- iwillgonow: then antitype is complete and d/a is fulfilled
jello13091: that's from 3 years ago
jello13091: still, if it's going on until probation closes, why do we celebrate it once a year when it represents something that is now done every day
psycho314t: you asked why the sabbath wasn’t weeded out with the feast ones, but it was! all these sda's going to sunday church...
jello13091: well.... still a lot do sabbath
psycho314t: oh, i thought it was the minority
jello13091: not in Keene!
psycho314t: ah
psycho314t: the one here does the same... sabbath but no feasts, but its a small church
jello13091: we never solved this three years ago or last year
psycho314t: we always decide the same thing
psycho314t: its not 100% fulfilled so we do it until it is
jello13091: but Jesus moving in their permanently takes away the need for anyone to intercede in the holiest of holies on that one given day
psycho314t: right
jello13091: i guess I understand though how it's not fulfilled all the way when you look at an example like animal sacrifices in general
psycho314t: its not fulfilled all the way because it points toward the strong man/angel chaining up the goat/beast in the wilderness/pit for the 1000 years
iwillgonow: Atonement isn't complete until Jesus rises up from his position and says "It is finished." Then his ATONEMENT is finished, the last ceremony is completed, and it's all done.
psycho314t: noo, not even then because that wasn’t the end of the ceremony
jello13091: the scapegoat
psycho314t: when the high priest finished in the holiest of holies he still had to transfer the sin and someone had to take the goat out
jello13091: Did SDA ever observe feast days?
jello13091: Jacob’s cousin who goes to the SDA college is asking a friend that would know why they don’t
jello13091: he said that Ellen never said to observe them really
jello13091: so with the SDA, it might be that they are forgetting to turn to the Bible over a human
iwillgonow: I don't think my cousin has read much Ellen, and WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHAT SHE SAYS WHEN THE BIBLE SAYS DO IT. lol
jello13091: so it's as simple as "it hasn’t been totally fulfilled so we still do it"
psycho314t: that’s where we always stop
jello13091:
jello13091: so, everyone sleeping outside this year for tabernacles?!
psycho314t: nope
jello13091: why would Ellen suggest tabernacles, but no others
iwillgonow: Uh...yeah....sure we are....*snicker*....
jello13091: …….
iwillgonow: lol
iwillgonow: I actually read some more on Tabernacles and I still have a problem with the Israelite born phrase.
jello13091: well......DISCUSS
iwillgonow: Why isn't being BORN AGAIN good enough?
jello13091: post the verse
iwillgonow: When does the physical override the spiritual?
psycho314t: aren’t the 144,000 going to be israelite born?
psycho314t: didn’t we decide that?
iwillgonow: We decided we'd be dead, lol.
jello13091: well, why are we still calling me israelite born?
psycho314t: ... because you are
iwillgonow: Cause you are genetically, blood born israelite.
jello13091: how do we know with all the mixed lines
iwillgonow: Cause you said somebody at your temple said that your mom said you were a Levite.
iwillgonow: lol you got some real proof there
jello13091: yeah, it's called the first three letters of my last name
jello13091: LEV
iwillgonow: Well I'm convinced, lol...
iwillgonow: Hey my name starts with Hart which must mean that I'm from Hartford.
jello13091: for all i know, i heard whatever i wanted to hear
jello13091: i was really young
jello13091: but whatever
jello13091: it doesn’t really matter
jello13091: post the verse jacob
iwillgonow: I'll prob. sleep outside again this year anyway.
psycho314t: early in 1995 the leadership of the WCG declared the Sabbath and the annual Holy Days to be part of the Old Covenant, and consequently no longer obligatory for Christians today. Over 50,000 members and 500 pastors have left the WCG as a result of these doctrinal changes.
psycho314t: Worldwide Church of God, sabbath keepers
jello13091: well, then you get into "i can kill then"
iwillgonow: Oh I was like SDA?~!!!
psycho314t: there are seventh day BAPTISTS?!?
iwillgonow: yeah
jello13091: uh got me
iwillgonow: and 1 catholic that keeps the sabbath
iwillgonow: and like 4 mormons
iwillgonow: lol
jello13091:
psycho314t: http://www.thejournal.org/articles/issue27/26.html this is an article by the worldwide church of god about all the other religions that keep the sabbath and some of them the feast days
iwillgonow: Well that was neat.
iwillgonow: Glad you two solved your original question too, Julie. Productivity is #1!
jello13091: you're no help!
iwillgonow: lol daddy is not always going to be here to help you, kiddies
iwillgonow: I NEED THE EGW CD JULIE RIGHT NOW.
jello13091: yeah, you always say that, so you should help us now so that we can be equipped with the tools to handle it later when you're not here
jello13091: answer my question and then i'll find it
jello13091:
iwillgonow: I teach you to fish, but you want me to give you fish.
iwillgonow: I can't without EGW writings.
jello13091: well i do like fish
psycho314t:
iwillgonow: I'm working on archiving this CD and installing it, if you're curious.
jello13091: ok jacob's done downloading
psycho314t: and?
iwillgonow: Once a year, on the great Day of Atonement, the priest entered the most holy place for the cleansing of the sanctuary. The work there performed, completed the yearly round of ministration. . . . {FLB 198.4}
The earthly sanctuary was built . . . according to the pattern shown . . . in the mount. It was "a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices"; its two holy places were "patterns of things in the heavens"; Christ, our great high priest, is "a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."
jello13091: um yeah, so
jello13091: we knew that
iwillgonow: Um yeah so HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU SEE ELLEN SAYING THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY SYSTEM IS IN ADMINISTRATION?
iwillgonow: That's rare.
iwillgonow: Thus Christ, in His own spotless righteousness, after shedding His precious blood, enters into the holy place to cleanse the sanctuary. And there the crimson current is brought into the service of reconciling God to man. Some may look upon this slaying of the heifer as a meaningless ceremony, but it was done by the command of God and bears a deep significance that has not lost its application to the present time. . . .
iwillgonow: The blood of Christ is efficacious, but it needs to be applied continually. . . . {FLB 200.5}
iwillgonow: Uh she just said it.
iwillgonow: But knoweth not what she speaketh, she did.
iwillgonow: And there the crimson current is brought into the service of reconciling God to man.
iwillgonow: PRESENT TENSE.
jello13091: so "it still needs to be done"
iwillgonow: It is done, continually.
jello13091: and no other SDA person has gotten that out of that?
jello13091: well, it has to be applied continually, which could mean He's in the holiest of holies all the time atoning for our sins that way, which He is, but it still doesn’t fully clear up why we specifically do atonement
iwillgonow: By the offering of blood, the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the day of atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself, and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat.
psycho314t: yeah, that specific part confuses me some, because his continual atonement is perfect... there’s no end-of-the-year mess to clean up
iwillgonow: The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people.
iwillgonow: Such was the service performed "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things." And what was done in type in the ministration of the earthly sanctuary, is done in reality in the ministration of the heavenly sanctuary. After his ascension, our Saviour began his work as our high priest. Says Paul, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."
iwillgonow: The ministration of the priest throughout the year in the first apartment of the sanctuary, "within the veil" which formed the door and separated the holy place from the outer
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court, represents the work of ministration upon which Christ entered at his ascension.
iwillgonow: It was the work of the priest in the daily ministration to present before God the blood of the sin-offering, also the incense which ascended with the prayers of Israel. So did Christ plead his blood before the Father in behalf of sinners, and present before him also, with the precious fragrance of his own righteousness, the prayers of penitent believers. Such was the work of ministration in the first apartment of the sanctuary in Heaven.
iwillgonow: For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record.
iwillgonow: yet their sins still remained upon the books of record.
jello13091: till atonement or till the second coming?
psycho314t: till he went into the holiest of holies
psycho314t: to do what the high priest did at the end of the year, wipe the slate clean
iwillgonow: Who can explain to Jacob how that 1800 year trend works with atonement being once a year, not once every millennia and 800 years?
psycho314t: all the feasts are yearly, but what they depict aren’t necessarily
iwillgonow: Here's the answer:
iwillgonow: As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of his solemn work,--to cleanse the sanctuary.
psycho314t: the one year cycle of sin, repent, sacrifice, end-of-year-atonement represents the entire history of the world
psycho314t: yeah, ask the question and don’t wait for the answer
iwillgonow: lol
jello13091: well, He’s cleansing the holiest of holies everyday
iwillgonow: So, not even Jesus' blood TRUELY cleansed sins from record from the first day in the Heavenly sanctuary to 1844. How bout them apples?
jello13091: so then His work now in cleansing there is to completely remove that sin?
iwillgonow: He sheds his blood as a pre-payment, like a credit card, but the balance is not truly paid till the 30th of the month, when the amount is deducted from your checking account.
psycho314t: it truly forgave us though
psycho314t: nah
jello13091: that's one of the worst analogies every!
iwillgonow: ???
psycho314t: more like he paid it in full then and now he's shredding the cancelled checks
psycho314t: you cant accuse Jesus of not being able to fully cleanse us of our sins
jello13091: yeah, so like i said, He's completing the cleansing
psycho314t: it just didn’t get rid of the record
jello13091: He's cleansing the record
iwillgonow: Hey now, your sins for the entire year DO NOT GO AWAY WHEN YOU ARE FORGIVEN OF THEM TILL THE 10TH DAY OF THE 7TH MONTH OF EVERY YEAR.
psycho314t: are you sure?
psycho314t: that’s what we're discussing
iwillgonow: Yep. That's the point.
psycho314t: Jesus is in the holiest of holies every day doing that cleansing work
jello13091: yeah, that's what I'm thinking
jello13091: so why is one day any different if He's already doing that now?
psycho314t: we've said we keep the sabbath only because the END, the scapegoat part isn’t finished
iwillgonow: And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But, before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin, and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of his atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation,--a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem his people; for when he comes, his reward is with him to give to every man according to his works.
psycho314t: i think we had wondered one year if we should keep just the sabbath like the others and not do the fasting because it is tied to the cleansing
psycho314t: yeah, the record is transferred onto the scapegoat and then he's separated permanently from everyone
psycho314t: thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat.
psycho314t: yeah, that specific part confuses me some, because his continual atonement is perfect... there’s no end-of-the-year mess to clean up
iwillgonow: The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people.
jello13091: so then now He's judging?
iwillgonow: There's your "what Jesus is doing in the Holy of Holies" answer.
jello13091: not cleansing completely yet?
iwillgonow: Uh read it Julie, it says cleansing INVOLVES....
iwillgonow: Both, not one or the other.
jello13091: a tandem
iwillgonow: lol!
psycho314t: yeah, says cleansing is accomplished by removal of sins/blotting out
psycho314t: oh no, you’ve corrupted her
iwillgonow: And you know what? NOT EVEN AT THE TENTH DAY OF THE SEVENTH MONTH ARE THE SINS TRUELY GONE:
iwillgonow: It was seen, also, that while the sin-offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scape-goat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel.
jello13091: well, here's a good point. There's no scapegoat yet every time on atonement
jello13091: Satan isn't given the sins every year
psycho314t: if he's been working on it for 100 years some of them have to be gone by now, right?
iwillgonow: Gone where?
iwillgonow: To the scapegoat?
iwillgonow: Not yet.
iwillgonow: It's all pre-paid, always has been, and will be till the end.
jello13091: He'll place them on Satan at the end but what about now on atonement?!?!?!
psycho314t: uh... removed... um... well, transferred from the records to Jesus in prep. for the scapegoat, i guess
jello13091: all those sins are on Jesus?
iwillgonow: Well they're not in the sanctuary after atonement, so......
iwillgonow: And they're not on the scapegoat till the end...
iwillgonow: I don't know where they go, but that's really not important to know is it?
jello13091: yeah, it is
psycho314t: On the day of atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself, and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scape-goat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat.
iwillgonow: We know where they end up.
psycho314t: On the day of atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself, and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scape-goat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat.
iwillgonow: Or that will work.
jello13091: hmmm
jello13091: i see
jello13091: the priest was the transfer part
jello13091: so as Jesus is transferring them now
jello13091: but we just don’t have the scapegoat yet
psycho314t: but since we no longer have the step of transferring our sin from us to the earthly sanctuary and then to the goat every year....?
iwillgonow: Both the prophecy of Dan. 8:14, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," and the first angel's message, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come," pointed to Christ's ministration in the most holy place, to the investigative Judgment, and not to the coming of Christ for the redemption of his people and the destruction of the wicked. The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished.
psycho314t: we repent and send them straight to the heavenly one and they're there till Jesus gets to removing them?
iwillgonow: Yep.
jello13091: cleansed after 2300 days
iwillgonow: And they ALL get removed in about a week on Atonement.
jello13091: cleansed once or continually from then?
iwillgonow: Julie....no.
psycho314t: cleansed starting then?
jello13091: just covering everything
iwillgonow: Julie, hello Julie...
psycho314t: brb
iwillgonow: 2300 days prophecy was about dark ages to 1844, when Jesus went from Holy place to Most Holy place.
jello13091: I KNOW
jello13091: "..... then shall the sanctuary be cleansed,"
psycho314t: back
iwillgonow: While the investigative Judgment is going forward in Heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.
psycho314t: but what says they get removed in a week, literally?
psycho314t: if the yearly type was shadowing the events from beginning to end of time, then it doesn’t happen in heaven once a year
psycho314t: that antitypical one day event has been going on since 1844 until the end of probation
psycho314t: they don’t get removed every year, the 'day of atonement' for the heavenly sanctuary is on-going right now
iwillgonow: So when Christ entered the holy of holies to perform the closing work of the atonement, he ceased his ministration in the first apartment. But when the ministration in the first apartment ended, the ministration in the second apartment began. When in the typical service the high priest left the holy on the day of atonement, he went in before God to present the blood of the sin-offering in behalf of all Israel who truly repented of their sins. So Christ had only completed one part of his work as our intercessor, to enter upon another portion of the work, and he still pleaded his blood before the Father in behalf of sinners.
psycho314t: you’re proving my point
jello13091: so is He in the holiest of holies now but just pleads with God on atonement?
jello13091: can that be possible?
psycho314t: does he do anything different on day of atonement?
jello13091: no?
iwillgonow: Yeah, he purges the temple.
iwillgonow: Sins build up in the temple all year, get purged on DOA.
psycho314t: i wouldn’t think so if it's our earthly shadow of the heavenly order of things
psycho314t: NO
jello13091: i agree, NO
psycho314t: sins built up in the EARTHLY temple for the year and got purged on the EARTHLY DAY OF ATONEMENT
iwillgonow: lol
jello13091: in the holiest of holies
jello13091: once a year
iwillgonow: Earthly is a shadow of the heavenly.
psycho314t: which represented the ENTIRE WORLD HISTORY
jello13091: but now He's there ALWAYS
psycho314t: where the "day" of atonement started when he went into the holiest of holies
iwillgonow: Heavenly came before the earthly.
psycho314t: and the "day" ends at the 1000 years when satan is locked up in the wilderness by himself
jello13091: so in effect the day of atonement is every day kinda?
psycho314t: in heaven i think it is
jello13091: i suggested that 3 years ago and was shot down!
psycho314t: or not so much the day of atonement, but what it was shadowing for us
psycho314t: part of what it was shadowing for us
psycho314t: the part where the high priest was in the holiest
psycho314t: but its not done because of the scapegoat
jello13091: SO THEN WHY DO WE OBSERVE THIS ONE DAY?!?!?
psycho314t: because its not 100% fulfilled!
jello13091: if we have it going on in Heaven or as a shadow
jello13091: so then, BECAUSE OF THE SCAPEGOAT
psycho314t: i think the... yes, because of the scapegoat
psycho314t: but does that make the ceremonial, fast & repent part obsolete?
jello13091: That's what we've been questioning.... the day as a day
psycho314t: nono, like the sacrificial parts of the other feast days are obsolete because they pointed to Jesus as the sacrifice but the day of rest part is still valid
iwillgonow: Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The Judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For more than forty years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review.
jello13091: "closing work of the atonement"....... the ongoing process of atonement
psycho314t: ahh i just thought of it in different terms that make it more... well, maybe more complicated, i dunno
iwillgonow: I'm going to go off on a sin tangent here again and SLAM THIS INTO YOUR HEADS:
iwillgonow: It is impossible to so explain the origin of sin as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin, to fully make manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all his dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in nowise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion.
psycho314t: instead of because he's constantly atoning we should/shouldn’t stop the DoA observance, it was BECAUSE the high priest was doing the work in the holiest that they did the DoA, so we should keep it until he's finished
psycho314t: ... maybe
iwillgonow: Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given.
psycho314t: DUH
psycho314t: get back on topic
jello13091: jacob, we're not following whatever you're trying to tell us
psycho314t: he's being repetitive
jello13091: that's an interesting point jennifer
iwillgonow: It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it, is to defend it.
psycho314t: except he's repeating stuff we talked about WEEKS/MONTHS/YEARS AGO
iwillgonow: lol
jello13091: yeah hush jacob
psycho314t: instead of the matter at hand
iwillgonow: Yall don't believe it tho.
iwillgonow: You think sin can be explained.
psycho314t: what? why do you think we don’t?
psycho314t: who is explaining sin?
psycho314t: eh?
jello13091: what?
jello13091: please
psycho314t: why are you getting off subject?
psycho314t: hellllo
iwillgonow: When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, then the scape-goat was presented alive before the Lord; and in presence of the congregation of high priest confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat.
iwillgonow: In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels, and the host of the redeemed, the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness.
jello13091: Jacob, WE KNOW THAT
iwillgonow: "when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed"
iwillgonow: Uh that means it hasn't been completed yet, the atonement process.
jello13091:
jello13091: those simple words and we completely look over it
psycho314t: uh... we didn’t look over it
psycho314t: we knew it wasn’t complete...
jello13091: then why were we questioning atonement
jello13091: well, never mind
psycho314t:
jello13091: did we solve anything?
iwillgonow: no u didn’t lol
psycho314t: of course not, do we ever?
jello13091: are we done for the night?
iwillgonow: Such was the service performed "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things." And what was done in type in the ministration of the earthly sanctuary is done in reality in the ministration of the heavenly sanctuary.
jello13091: guess not
psycho314t: is jacob still trying to say DoA is done heavenly yearly?
iwillgonow: The ministration of the priest throughout the year in the first apartment of the sanctuary, "within the veil" which formed the door and separated the holy place from the outer court, represents the work of ministration upon which Christ entered at His ascension. It was the work of the priest in the daily ministration to present before God the blood of the sin offering, also the incense which ascended with the prayers of Israel. So did Christ plead His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners, and present before Him also, with the precious fragrance of His own righteousness, the prayers of penitent believers. Such was the work of ministration in the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven.
jello13091: i think so
psycho314t: what do you think, julie?
jello13091: STOP POSTING THE SAME STUFF!!
jello13091: I don’t think it’
jello13091: s done once a year in Heaven
iwillgonow: Fine, guess without me you two can figure it out like you always do...*laughs*...
jello13091: because obviously it's being done every day
jello13091: don't make me get up...
iwillgonow: oh no and walk 2 feet to my desk!
psycho314t: yeah, the yearly day was pointing towards this constant time that is going on right now
psycho314t: get up? just throw something at him
iwillgonow: If that's right then Ellen's right and we're living in the great anti-typical constant day of atonement 24/7/365 Jennifer.
psycho314t: uh..... yes
iwillgonow: Oh brother, back to square one.
psycho314t: what?! we are!
iwillgonow: Symbolic then, well forget tabernacles, and trumpets, and the new moon of the year, and the last great day, and the sabbath, and pentecost......
psycho314t: since when were the feasts LITERALLY yearly? did the passover happen every year when they remembered it?
psycho314t: does Jesus DIE every freakin year when we do the lord's supper?
psycho314t: day of atonement was done YEARLY to point to the ONE TRUE TIME IT WOULD HAPPEN
jello13091:
jello13091: well, it hasn't fully happened
psycho314t: it's started and hasn’t ended
jello13091: yeah
psycho314t: and while the high priest was doing it yearly, they had to repent and fast... so THERE’S where we have a problem we either die because we fast and repent every day
psycho314t: or we do it like we've always done....
jello13091: and even if He's not removing the sins once a year on atonement, He's still doing the work. Is He removing the record once a year as opposed to the sins?
psycho314t: or we don’t do it at all and just keep the sabbath
psycho314t: no, in heaven that’s the same thing...
jello13091: ok
psycho314t: the priest on earth removed the sins from the holiest of holies, Jesus removes them from the record
iwillgonow: freakin' scholars in this chatroom all the sudden, sheesh...
jello13091: so now the problem is with fasting and repenting
psycho314t: he's been working on that since 1844
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: But they are NOT removed from the record till the literal atonement day once a year!!!
psycho314t: NOTHING DIFFERENT HAPPENS ONCE A YEAR
psycho314t: ARE YOU LISTENING?
iwillgonow: They're just COVERED BY THE BLOOD.
psycho314t: LITERAL YEARLY ATONEMENT IS EARTHLY!!!!!!!!!
iwillgonow: Oy vey....that Midland dust must be affecting your brains.
psycho314t: julie gets me, you're lost
jello13091: in Heaven, Jesus goes in EVERY DAY, sheds blood and atones for our sins, just as the..... wait. Blood was shed in the outer part of the temple every day for repentance
psycho314t: lets go through the feasts and see how many of them are literally yearly and how many aren’t
psycho314t: passover) the death angel passed over ONCE and the israelites got freed ONCE and they had to remember it YEARLY
psycho314t: lord's supper) Jesus died ONCE and we remember it YEARLY
psycho314t: pentecost) Jesus ascended ONCE and everyone got the outpouring of the holy spirit ONCE and we celebrate it YEARLY
iwillgonow: passover) will happen literally again
iwillgonow: pentecost) will happen literally again
psycho314t: then why don’t we celebrate passover?
iwillgonow: Cause Lord's Supper replaced it.
psycho314t: we do unleavened bread because its a concept thing, not a remembrance thing
psycho314t: lords supper remembers the one time death and the one time coming
psycho314t: coming again
iwillgonow: I'm just saying..
psycho314t: reading the other thing you said julie, what about that? if Jesus is in the inner room and repentance blood happens in the outer...?
psycho314t: ellen didn’t say he goes back and forth...
psycho314t: does he do both inside?
jello13091: i thought He is just in the inner
jello13091: well, i don’t know if that works
psycho314t: she said the outer work was finished and he went to the inner
psycho314t: but earthly, sacrifices for repentance were in the outer
psycho314t: so something must be different in the antitype than in the type there
jello13091: the priests did it in the outer = Jesus shedding blood in the inner therefore the priests entering the holiest on atonement = ____
psycho314t: uh...
jello13091: i just blanked
psycho314t: priests in the outer = Jesus in the outer for the 2300 days
psycho314t: DoA/priest in the inner = Jesus in the inner now/judgment
jello13091: no, no, we know that
jello13091: but maybe Jesus is shedding His blood daily in the inner like the priest did in the outer on earth
psycho314t: right... what were you blanked on?
jello13091: so then we compare scapegoats?
psycho314t: ah, yeah, that’s what i was wondering
jello13091: and not focus on the day on atonement that was on earth, that we have no equivalent to in Heaven
jello13091: ?
psycho314t: well... what happened on the earthly DoA if someone needed to repent and they couldn’t cuz the high priest was busy in the holiest of holies doing the atonement work
psycho314t: ?
jello13091: uh, does it matter?!
psycho314t: that’s what we're facing now.... Jesus is in the inner so there's no one for repentance in the outer, unless Jesus is doing both in the inner, but the high priest wouldn’t have done that i don’t think
psycho314t: i don’t guess he needed to though, everyone was fasting at home and not getting into trouble
jello13091: yeah, and if they weren't fasting, they weren't believers!
psycho314t: yeah
jello13091: and didn't want repentance
psycho314t: i have the feeling jacob is either ignoring us or laughing
iwillgonow: Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat."
iwillgonow: In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit.
psycho314t: yes... that will happen only once
psycho314t: at the end of time
jello13091: i feel like i've heard that before
jello13091: maybe like 10 posts ago
jello13091: and then 20
jello13091: and then 30
jello13091:
psycho314t: so why do you think the first half of the atonement happens yearly?
iwillgonow: Atonement as a concept would be "completed" if the sanctuary was cleansed completely every single day, lol. Jesus could end that job and move on to the scapegoat.
jello13091: so now we have to focus on the bigger picture and the end goal
psycho314t: atonement as a concept? The atonement period will be completed when the record books are done and the living have been judged and probation is over
jello13091: and satan is the scapegoat
jello13091: cant forget that!
iwillgonow: WOW thanks Julie for pointing that out! Super terrific!
psycho314t: and yeah, not till after that he'll come back and take the good and kill the bad and then make satan the scapegoat
jello13091: well you managed to point it out 100 times
jello13091: so technically, we still do the day of atonement because the process as a whole is not finished yet
iwillgonow: Alrighty you Bible scholars, yall just let me know when you're going to be holding your next meeting so I can sit at your feets and learn something prophetic and symbolic with conceptual context.
09/14/04
psycho314t: Hebr:10:8: Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebr:10:9: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
psycho314t: that’s neat, never saw that. so much for destroying the law
jello13091: people would prob. say it was a different second law and blah blah
iwillgonow: On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering for the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, above the tables of the law. Thus the claims of the law, which demanded the life of the sinner, were satisfied. Then in his character of mediator the priest took the sins upon himself, and, leaving the sanctuary, he bore with him the burden of Israel's guilt. At the door of the tabernacle he laid his hands upon the head of the scapegoat and confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat."
iwillgonow: As Christ's ministration was to consist of two great divisions, each occupying a period of time and having a distinctive place in the heavenly sanctuary, so the typical ministration consisted of two divisions, the daily and the yearly service, and to each a department of the tabernacle was devoted.
iwillgonow: As Christ at His ascension appeared in the presence of God to plead His blood in behalf of penitent believers, so the priest in the daily ministration sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice in the holy place in the sinner's behalf.
iwillgonow: The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of 00Atonement.
jello13091: then the DOA would be the end
jello13091: or the blood and the record are two separate things
iwillgonow: Can you read?
iwillgonow: 364 days a year the blood only COVERS it, but does NOT remove it, or destroy it, just keeps it pre-paid in holding till the literal yearly DOA, when it is eradicated from the temple.
jello13091: so then everyday, Jesus is not removing sin from the inner which He's always in now.
jello13091: since He's not removing the blood
iwillgonow: In the great day of final award, the dead are to be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12. Then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven. Thus the sanctuary will be freed, or cleansed, from the record of sin.
iwillgonow: In the type, this great work of atonement, or blotting out of sins, was represented by the services of the Day of Atonement--the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary, which was accomplished by the removal, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, of the sins by which it had been polluted.
iwillgonow: As in the final atonement the sins of the truly penitent are to be blotted from the records of heaven, no more to be remembered or come into mind, so in the type they were borne away into the wilderness, forever separated from the congregation.
iwillgonow: So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat. {PP 358.2}
Thus in the ministration of the tabernacle, and of the temple that afterward took its place, the people were taught each day the great truths relative to Christ's death and ministration, and once each year their minds were carried forward to the closing events of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, the final purification of the universe from sin and sinners.
iwillgonow: Ok kids, see how the symbolic nature of the scapegoat was done literally yearly, but everybody SHOULD have known it would only happen once in the universe.
jello13091: so we're waiting for purification and the scapegoat like we said all last night
jello13091: yeah, that was never the point
iwillgonow: But, the cleansing of the temple does not happen everyday, it literally only happens once a physical year. It's not symbolic, it is LITERAL.
jello13091: so then what does He do every day? Just forgive our sins from in there?
iwillgonow: Scroll up and read it, already been posted.
psycho314t: i haven’t read anything past "OWNED", but NO NO NO
jello13091: why
psycho314t: he proved what we were saying last night
jello13091:
psycho314t:
iwillgonow (1:40:13 PM): As Christ's ministration was to consist of two great divisions,(THAT DOESNT SAY 2 YEARLY, IT JUST SAYS 2) each occupying a period of time and having a distinctive place in the heavenly sanctuary, so the typical (TYPE = EARTH)ministration consisted of two divisions, the daily and the yearly service, and to each a department of the tabernacle was devoted.
iwillgonow: ...
psycho314t: and she said in stuff you pasted a million times last night that when the 2300 days ended, the work in the first compartment ENDED, and he entered the second to cleanse the temple
psycho314t: have you forgotten how symbolism works?
iwillgonow: You know what................................that kinda makes sense right there, KINDA.
jello13091: guess you weren’t paying attention last night then!
psycho314t: the work of the 2300 days in the first compartment was the ANTITYPE for the 364 days the priests were in the outer compartment offering sacrifices
iwillgonow: But if you're right, atonement should not be observed once a year literally anymore.
jello13091: that's what we've been questioning/saying
psycho314t: the work from 1844 through now till the end of time with satan as the scapegoat is the ANTITYPE for the once a year DOA
iwillgonow: We should not keep it.
iwillgonow: Because that denies it's continual anti-type literalism.
psycho314t: but now that we’ve got that established let's take it in steps. all the other sabbaths we keep without doing the ceremonial stuff. in my mind, there's no question as to whether we'd keep the physical day of rest sabbath for it, right?
psycho314t: shouldn’t the only thing we'd stop doing be the ceremonial fasting part because it's purpose is already here?
iwillgonow: The 7th day Sabbath is not symbolic, in that it has been a literal day of every week since time was created, so that's not an issue.
psycho314t: eh? i’m talking about the resting for atonement
psycho314t: like we're doing for trumpets today
iwillgonow: STEPS WOMAN, STEPS....
iwillgonow: Lord's Supper is symbolic of Christ's return, we do it on the anniversary of his death, literally, every year....simple enough, that works out fine.
iwillgonow: Trumpets heralds the physical day of atonement's coming....
jello13091: didn’t we try to go over this last night and jacob said no?!
psycho314t: i thought it heralded all the fall feasts
jello13091: i was about to bring up trumpets but was gonna wait
jello13091: if atonement is no more, why do trumpets which warns of atonement
iwillgonow: Wonder if atonement would have been literally observable till 1844.
psycho314t: what about what i said last night: they kept the fasting & sabbath when the high priest was in the holiest doing the atonement.... our high priest is currently doing it for the final time, so maybe we should still observe it because its not complete
jello13091: hmm, but isn't He doing it every day now since He's in the inner always?
iwillgonow: If Atonement is all the time, you going to fast all the time?
iwillgonow: If Atonement is this AGE, this period of time in earth's history, then trying to tag a certain day and do like they did of old mocks what it truly is: an AGE, not a day.
jello13091: no, just bringing that up though
psycho314t: yeah, just throwing every possible thing out
iwillgonow: Tabernacles has always been symbolic of our time on earth as a journey till the end come. It's been valid since it was first done, and is still done the same way today as it was done 4,000 years ago.
iwillgonow: Doesn't have anything to do with OT or NT, it's just what it is.
iwillgonow: Valid.
iwillgonow: So we're tossing trumpets and atonement because they're in the anti-typical administration of continual all the time instead of literally once a year REPRESENTING this age that began in 1844.
psycho314t: BUT the trumpets will come again
psycho314t: when Jesus comes back to get us
psycho314t: so it could point forward to something bigger too
jello13091: but atonement isn't finished, so isn't there something left that we have to do to show it's coming?
psycho314t: and that
jello13091: the bigger picture
jello13091: the idea now, not just the specifics
iwillgonow: LOL, now that I agree with yall, you agree with my point of view!
iwillgonow: "But what about..." lol
jello13091: we never said we didn't think it was part of a bigger picture
psycho314t: we were talking about the bigger picture when you were busy doing your "i’m right yall are wrong" dance last night
jello13091:
iwillgonow: It's simple: Either Atonement is still a single day a year where a special event happens or it WAS representative of an AGE OF MANKIND where the "special event" actually happens all the time in this age.
psycho314t: Levi:23:26: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Levi:23:27: Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Levi:23:28: And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Levi:23:29: For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Levi:23:30: And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
psycho314t: Levi:23:31: Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Levi:23:32: It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
psycho314t: ye shall do no work... forever throughout your generations...
iwillgonow: We all know what forever can mean.
iwillgonow: "Till it's done."
iwillgonow: Welp, done now, been done since 1844.
psycho314t: but not done, not 100% done until the end of time
jello13091: true
jello13091: not done till it's transferred to the scapegoat
jello13091: so how do we put these two things together:?
iwillgonow: The observance of the literal day has been done since 1844 cause now you can't observe an AGE OF MANKIND for one day?
psycho314t: shouldn’t we still point forward to the fact that its not over till the scapegoat sings?
psycho314t: that was too cheesy even for me
jello13091: oh man....
jello13091:
jello13091: so....
iwillgonow: So he's cleansing the temple 24/7/365 and continually transferring to himself and continually offering the sprinkling of his blood upon the mercy seat.
iwillgonow: It's an age now, not a day.
psycho314t: but its not over
jello13091: well, how do we look forward to the scapegoat through observance?
iwillgonow: Do what Ellen says.
jello13091: she says don't do any of the days
iwillgonow: lol, fine i'll post it AGAIN
psycho314t: We are living in the great Day of Atonement, and it is now time that everyone should repent
225
before God, confess his sins, and by living faith rest upon the merit of a crucified and living Saviour. {TM 224.2}
psycho314t: beat him to it
iwillgonow: We are in the antitypical day of atonement, and not only are we to humble our hearts before God and confess our sins, but we are, by all our educating talent, to seek to instruct those with whom we are brought in contact, and to bring them by precept and example to know God and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent.
jello13091: well, we do that
iwillgonow: We are in the great day of atonement, a time when a man must be afflicting his soul, confessing his sins, humbling his heart before God, and getting ready for the great conflict.
psycho314t: yeah, that’s nothing new
iwillgonow: We are now living in the great day of atonement. . . . All who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart.
jello13091: are we 100% sure here
psycho314t: i'm not
iwillgonow: *sigh*
jello13091: I just feel like if we stop doing it, it isn't right
iwillgonow: Unfortunately it makes sense.
jello13091: jacob, why don't you call your dad about this
jello13091: see what he thinks of it
psycho314t: i can see stopping the fasting because it was specifically for a one day event that isn’t a one day event anymore, but i cant see stopping the sabbath because the whole thing isn’t finished
iwillgonow: I would wonder how atonement makes any sense now that the Holy of Holies is constantly being administered in, when that used to be a once a year thing. That threw the whole symbolic/literal match off by a mile. Not to mention it made "WHAT IS HE DOING IN THERE" a big problem in matching with the old way.
psycho314t: bah, i guess it was all for a specific one day event but i still can’t see stopping it
jello13091: THATS WHAT WE ASKED THE WHOLE TIME JACOB!
psycho314t: uh, ellen told us what he was doing and how it matched
jello13091: that's the point we brought up 3 years ago
jello13091: and last year when we turned to Hebrews
psycho314t: the high priest was taking the sins symbolically out of the temple, where they had been transferred by the people
psycho314t: Jesus is taking our sins out of the record books, where they were literally transferred for the last 6000 years
psycho314t: Hebrews had a verse that i know we've dealt with before but it threw me off when i read it last night
iwillgonow: No, they've been literally recorded in the book of works, but they're literally in place in the temple.
jello13091: not to be removed until the scapegoat
psycho314t: Hebr:10:11: And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Hebr:10:12: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebr:10:13: From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Hebr:10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
psycho314t: the whole one offering and then Jesus sat down thing
psycho314t: and isn’t removing the sins from the records to himself currently?
psycho314t: isn’t Jesus
psycho314t: as the high priest did the first part of the DoA
psycho314t: for the last part, the scapegoat
iwillgonow: His first offering after the resurrection cleansed the OT, it ratified the people under the animal sacrifices, made their faith their salvation, PAYED FOR WHAT THE ANIMALS DID NOT PAY FOR.
psycho314t: but it says he sat down... ellen says he stayed in the outer tabernacle
psycho314t: and i looked up that instance of for ever, and ever said continually i think
psycho314t: so i went to bed
iwillgonow: Ok it's the idea. Jesus doesn't literally stay in that little room every second of every hour of every day for thousands of years. You know he has to attend the worship of God that happens at 3 o clock or whatever. His JOB is the room and he goes there when he's supposed to, and he NEVER officiates in the regular holy place anymore.
psycho314t: that makes sense
jello13091: yeah
jello13091: every day we get our sins forgiven from the inner when He's in there
iwillgonow: EVERYBODY attends the worship meeting, no exceptions.
iwillgonow: God gets His dues.
iwillgonow: By the OT Jesus is cleansing twice a day.
psycho314t: not necessarily on what julie said... i thought Jesus started with the records of the dead and then the last thing he'll do will be the living before he comes back
iwillgonow: Once in the morning and once in the afternoon.
psycho314t: i thought ellen said that
jello13091: jacob is calling his dad
psycho314t: reading through last night's chat because jacob posted the ellen thing, I’m trying to remember about the dead first, then the living... but i read something else he posted that i forgot
psycho314t: iwillgonow (10:00:37 PM): And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But, before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin, and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of his atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation,--a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem his people; for when he comes, his reward is with him to give to every man according to his works.
psycho314t: the judgment is first, probably now
jello13091: and i said, so is he judging now
psycho314t: iwillgonow (10:03:20 PM): It was seen, also, that while the sin-offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scape-goat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel.
psycho314t: yeah
psycho314t: nothing is removed from record until the end
psycho314t: i guess
psycho314t: there we go
psycho314t: iwillgonow (10:21:04 PM): Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The Judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For more than forty years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review.
psycho314t: how's the conversation with his dad going?
jello13091: something like, the 2300 days is not what we think it is
psycho314t: not what ellen thought?
jello13091: i don’t know
jello13091: jacob hasn’t said anything in awhile
psycho314t: ah
jello13091: what was done in the earthly was done in the heavenly first since the earthly was a copy
psycho314t: couldn’t be 100% because Revelations shows the scapegoat is a once & end of time event
jello13091: i just asked how the sins were removed in the heavenly before that would make Moses copy that in the earthly
psycho314t: i know everything in the sanctuary was a copy of what was in the heavenly, but i don’t think that applied to all the feasts. they were given to point back or forward to something
psycho314t: not usually because other random websites have the same days a lot of the time
iwillgonow: My dad doesn't agree with Ellen's interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy.
psycho314t: ok, what does he think?
iwillgonow: He believes that Jesus has, still is, and will continue to ADMINISTER in the regular Holy Place, and only enter into the Most Holy once a year, on atonement, to perform the exact things as it was done in the earthly system, which is a copy of the Heavenly.
psycho314t: but that couldn’t have been a copy for moses to see because Jesus wasn’t able to go in there until he died here
jello13091: but then, couldn't you pin down the final coming around atonement because then the scapegoat would be done?
jello13091: does that make sense?
psycho314t: if jacob’s dad was right, yeah
iwillgonow: So, our entire foundation for our understanding of Atonement was based on the 2300 day prophecy being that Jesus moved permanently from the Holy to the Most Holy place......
jello13091: and what acts as the scapegoat now in heaven?
jello13091: well, do we just stop believing in the 2300 days?
psycho314t: i don’t know if i agree with ellens 2300 or not because i haven’t studied it beyond what ellen says
psycho314t: but either way i don’t think your dad is right about Jesus doing atonement yearly
iwillgonow: lol, you got 9 days to figure your stuff out, lol
iwillgonow: I LOVE HOW EVERY YEAR BEFORE EVERY YEARLY SABBATH WE TOSS IT OUT, TAKE IT BACK IN, THEN TRY TO FIGURE IT OUT 1 HOUR BEFORE IT STARTS.
psycho314t: at least its a week this time
psycho314t:
jello13091: so now what do we do with this
psycho314t: we're back to square one
psycho314t: or square... negative 10
jello13091: well, what else would the 2300 days represent?
psycho314t: i’m reading one guys answer
psycho314t: http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/prophecy/2300days.html
psycho314t: not endorsing him at all tho
iwillgonow: If you don't take Ellen's view, you're tossing out several of her visions.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: So did they come from God or not? Now we're getting serious.
psycho314t: he says the 2300 will be 6 1/2 years of something right before the end
psycho314t: i just skimmed it to see what he said
jello13091: well isn't the 2300 listed with all the other times up until the end or probation or something
iwillgonow: Now my dad does believe the 2300 days were calculated correctly and did terminate in 1844, but he doesn't believe it signified what Ellen says it signified.
jello13091: then what did it signify?
psycho314t: eh? that part we can get from the bible...
psycho314t: “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
iwillgonow: The revelation of the Sabbath and the feast days and salvation by faith and all the movements that started around that time in preparation for the end.
jello13091: all the movements started because nothing happened in 1844
jello13091: and there was the GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT
iwillgonow: My dad doesn't know what the sanctuary being cleansed means.
iwillgonow: Ellen says what she thinks, he disagrees.
jello13091: so that's our hold up
iwillgonow: That view was the REASON we believed Jesus was in the Most Holy all the time since 1844, so yeah I'd say it was pretty important.
jello13091: that would mean if He went into the holiest, wouldn't it be permanently cleaned?
jello13091: "shall the sanctuary be cleansed"..... for good?
iwillgonow: If it was cleansed for good at any time, the world would be over and probation would have been closed.
jello13091: no, what if we're in a waiting period for the scapegoat
iwillgonow: what?
psycho314t: there cant be...
psycho314t: because he cant have finished cleaning the temple, like jacob said
psycho314t: the world would be over
iwillgonow: The CYCLE OF THE YEAR in the OT system gave everybody a fresh spiritual year. That was the point. All you could get out of it was a clean slate for another year till the next time the sins would be removed from the temple by the blood.
jello13091: are we in probation now?
jello13091: no more fresh years?
iwillgonow: Did you just ask me if we're in probation now?
iwillgonow: ...
psycho314t: we have fresh years until the end of probation, but i still don’t agree that the heavenly was cleansed every year
iwillgonow: It is clear it was.
psycho314t: no it isn’t
iwillgonow: Type must be the exact copy of the anti-type.
psycho314t: no it doesn’t
psycho314t: it couldn’t be cleaned every year
psycho314t: cleaned by who?
jello13091: then what about the scapegoat in the heavenly before it came to earth?!
psycho314t: Jesus couldn’t clean it until after he died
psycho314t: scapegoat where?
psycho314t: satan isn’t chained up every year, and never has been
iwillgonow: Wait.
jello13091: in Heaven
iwillgonow: Wait a minute.
jello13091: before the earthly
iwillgonow: You brought up a huge point, JUST SHUT UP FOR A SECOND.
jello13091: WE’RE SO CONFUSED!
iwillgonow: The point of the cross was to make Jesus worthy to be our high priest.
iwillgonow: Not to forgive sins.
jello13091: she mentioned that like 20 minutes ago
psycho314t: uh yeah
jello13091: so is He not in the inner now always?
jello13091: and is our high priest
jello13091: going in for us like on earth
iwillgonow: This is FUNDAMENTAL Julie, can you be quiet for a second?
jello13091: no
psycho314t: :))
iwillgonow: Our entire understanding of the cross is at risk here.
jello13091: well, keep going
iwillgonow: That's what makes us different from all the others.
psycho314t: ... we understand the cross, its DoA that's giving us fits
iwillgonow: Jesus wasn't worthy to officiate the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest until resurrection day.
psycho314t: DUH!
iwillgonow: So who did it in Heaven for 4,000 years?
psycho314t: NO ONE!!!!!!!
psycho314t: IT’S DONE ONCE!!!!!!!
psycho314t: LIKE IVE BEEN SAYYYYING
iwillgonow: The Heavenly was in administration since the fall, Jennifer.
iwillgonow: It is the ORIGINAL, the earthly is a copy.
psycho314t: but the DoA isn’t a yearly thing
jello13091: wait, what?
psycho314t: in heaven
jello13091: iwillgonow: The Heavenly was in administration since the fall,
jello13091: since sin
iwillgonow: Perhaps Jesus wasn't worthy as a man until the cross was completed, but before as a God he was worthy.
psycho314t: he wasn’t worthy as a sacrifice until he proved he could live without sin and god's law was just, and being the sacrifice was the only way he could get into the sanctuary or he wouldn’t have had anything to offer
iwillgonow: So was the Heavenly Sanctuary not in administration until after the cross? It was created, just sat there and waited while the earthly did what the Heavenly would do? What exactly happened to all the sins of Adam and Eve when they did sacrifices? Did they go to the......nothing? Where were they kept? How where they cleansed?
jello13091: that's what we asked you jacob
jello13091: you tell us!
psycho314t: they weren’t cleansed... they sat on the record books and waited for the real sacrifice
psycho314t: that was the whole point of DoA
psycho314t: to make everyone remember that the earthly sacrifices couldn’t cleanse the sin
jello13091: but they celebrate DoA then
psycho314t: there would be a final sacrifice at the end that would do it for real
jello13091: what happened on DoA every year till His death?
iwillgonow: Well it would make sense that the sins of all who were under the animal sacrificial system just culminated until Jesus made his first trip to the Heavenly Sanctuary after the cross and ratified the Old Covenant.
psycho314t: they did daily sacrifices to represent all the sacrifices that would happen from eden until the cross
jello13091: but what was the purpose of DoA for them? To point towards the coming?
psycho314t: and then DoA every year was to remind them that those sacrifices were useless until the final sacrifice at the end of the year (typical of Jesus, the ultimate final sacrifice) wiped the slate clean
psycho314t: but it couldn’t literally happen until after Jesus
jello13091: so then, we still think the 2300 days is valid
psycho314t: i think at the end of the 2300 days the final cleansing of the record books starts. whether ellen is right and that was 1844 or it’s at the end of time i don’t know
psycho314t: jacob’s dad still thinks it was even tho he doesn’t agree with what it meant
jello13091: wouldn't it seem like it would be when probation closes and hell breaks loose
jello13091: ?
psycho314t: or right before then
jello13091: yeah, which would mean that Ellen’s interpretation is wrong
iwillgonow: Read "Early Writings" End of the 2300 Days chapter.
psycho314t: well yeah, if it’s the end of time she was wrong
iwillgonow: If you don't believe the vision, then what can you believe of Ellen's?
jello13091: well, she's been wrong about other things
iwillgonow: It either came straight from God or was fake.
psycho314t: yeah...
jello13091: the problem is though, that you could turn to the bible to double check, but this time it's not that easy
iwillgonow: She's been wrong about opinions, but VISIONS? Either she lies or it's real.
jello13091: it was a vision....hmm
iwillgonow: Read it.
jello13091: where?
iwillgonow: Page 54
iwillgonow: Now speak ye and tell me, DO YOU BELIEVE THE VISION OR NOT?
jello13091: i don’t understand... is the end of the 2300 the total end? or what?
jello13091: I get it but i'm missing something
iwillgonow: [16:05] jello13091: I get it but i'm missing something <=== OXYMORON
jello13091: He enters into the holiest at the end of the 2300 days
jello13091: but what does it signify?
psycho314t: that sounds like the end to me some... Jesus no longer gives any light to those that didn’t follow him? that sounds like after probation when everyone else is screwed
psycho314t: Some Christian groups begin counting the 2300 day period way back in the past, (in 457 BC) which was not long after Belshazzar's reign when the prophecy was given. Why do they do this when Gabriel expressly advised Daniel to 'shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days:' that it would occur 'at the time of the end,' in the 'last days' when 'transgressors are come to the full?' The answer is because they believe that the 2300 day period of Daniel 8 and the 490 year period of Daniel 9 both start at the same time - in the year 457 BC. To use a common starting date for these two prophecies is a serious error which must be corrected. These two prophecies (Daniel 8 and Daniel 9) though only a chapter apart in the Bible were, in fact, given some 15 years apart;
psycho314t: this is off that site i posted earlier
psycho314t: and each prophecy is distinctly different from the next. For example
psycho314t: The 2300 Day Prophecy
Was given in 3rd year of king Belshazzar (about 553 BC)
The heavenly sanctuary (Temple) was to be desecrated
The daily sacrifice stopped
The starting date of this prophecy is in the 'last days,' at the 'time of the end,' at a time when 'transgressors are come to the full;' that is - at their worst!
Was 'many days' into Daniel's future.
Would usher in the false messiah, the Antichrist!
psycho314t: he says the heavenly temple was desecrated but that sounds like blasphemy
psycho314t: all the verse he was talking about said was the daily sacrifice was stopped and the temple was thrown down or something
psycho314t: which to me sounded like when Jesus died
psycho314t: 11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
psycho314t: this is all out of daniel 8
jello13091: Mr. Miller and those who were in union with him supposed that the cleansing of the sanctuary spoken of in Daniel 8:14 meant the purifying of the earth by fire prior to its becoming the abode of the saints. This was to take place at the second advent of Christ; therefore we looked for that event at the end of the 2300 days, or years. But after our disappointment the Scriptures were carefully searched, with prayer and earnest thought; and after a period of suspense, light poured in upon our darkness; doubt and uncertainty were swept away. {CET 56.2}
Instead of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming. {CET 56.3}
jello13091: that makes it sound still like the end of time is at the closing of the 2300 days
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: Now speak ye and tell me, DO YOU BELIEVE THE VISION OR NOT?
jello13091: As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary.
jello13091: it sounds like she's saying two different things
jello13091: did she get an actual vision of Jesus in the holiest now every day? or just that one we just read
iwillgonow: lol never enough for some folks....
jello13091: cause the vision we read makes it sound like the end, NOT LIKE HE ENTERED IN 1844
iwillgonow: I suppose she had to see Jesus speak your name too, and say "Julie, believe this vision," before you'd believe it, lol.
jello13091: no, it just isn’t as clear as the others
iwillgonow: Uh it's crystal clear.
psycho314t: i'm with julie
iwillgonow: The only time in the history of all eternity when God raises up to stay in the Holiest Place is when He personally takes the offerings of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary.
jello13091: In her vision, Jesus is talking to the multitudes that want their sins wiped away
jello13091: "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father.
jello13091: The Father is sitting in the holiest
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: The only time in the history of all eternity when God raises up to stay in the Holiest Place
iwillgonow: NO KIDDING?! LOL
jello13091: ..........
jello13091: Then wouldn't you think it would be the end when He goes in there?