the feast days (sabbaths): general discussion
06/16/01
psycho314t: Leviticus 23:27,32,37,38
The tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. (...) It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest. (...)
These are the feasts of the Lord (...) besides the Sabbaths of the Lord.
These feasts, such as the Day of Atonement, were called «sabbaths», that is, days of rest. These are the sabbaths which were abolished by Christ's death on the cross.
psycho314t: thats not right, tho..
jello13091: Hmmmmm
jello13091: Some quotations from there come from the NKJV
psycho314t: yeah, i noticed they were off a bit from the kjv
psycho314t: jacob? u there?
iwillgonow: I'm back.
psycho314t: wb
iwillgonow: Now what's the question on deck?
psycho314t: i just noticed another verse used to say Jesus abolished the law
psycho314t: Ephe:2:14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephe:2:15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
iwillgonow: Law of ordinances.
iwillgonow: That's the key.
jello13091: Which were?
iwillgonow: The ceremonial sacrificial system.
psycho314t: everything on the cyberspace lessons site is based on the entire ceremonial law being abolished..
psycho314t: they say that only the 10 commandments remain, basically
iwillgonow: Which is junk, and what most modern Christians believe.
jello13091: Ok, I was getting confused by that.
iwillgonow: The feast days are "to all generations," perpetual, everlasting, yadda yadda yadda.
psycho314t: yeah.. i was about to print the sabbath lesson out without reading it too carefully, but if i had, my grandmother would have blown my argument away
iwillgonow: And by some we know by their very meaning that they must go on until the end of time, to be fulfilled by events yet to come.
jello13091: What did the Sabbath one say?
psycho314t: Colossians 2:16,17
Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
On the other hand, some people, forgetting all the verses we have just studied, present these verses as proof of the abolition of the Sabbath.
But as we have seen in our lesson «The Two Laws», there was a ceremonial law describing some feasts also called «sabbaths», distinct from the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, called «the Sabbath of the Lord» (Exodus 20:10).
psycho314t: and what i pasted before, that all sabbaths (like the day of atonement) except the 7th day sabbath were abolished
jello13091: Oh ok.
iwillgonow: The answer to that verse starts with this:
iwillgonow: which
are a shadow of things to come
iwillgonow: Think logically.
iwillgonow: Which is more important? The shadow or what makes the shadow?
jello13091: What makes it.
psycho314t: what makes the shadow
iwillgonow: So if the shadow is great, how much more greater will be the thing it
iwillgonow: "shadows,"
iwillgonow: or represents?
jello13091: Much.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: So we know therefore that the shadow is important, but much, much greater will come.
jello13091: Right.
iwillgonow: Those days are a shadow of forecoming things, and they are proclaimed "great" in the Bible.
iwillgonow: Even greater will come.
iwillgonow: That's the start of the explanation of that verse.
iwillgonow: Also remember that judge has more than one deffinition.
iwillgonow: Because we should seek, SEEK judgement from God.
iwillgonow: So obviously it's not always bad.
iwillgonow: Thoughts?
jello13091: I'm just reading about the ark from that other website that talked about the shewbread.
psycho314t: wait.. yeah, hang on.. back up a second. we're spiritually reborn as israelites, right?
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: Jews, even.
jello13091: Cool, where does it say that?
psycho314t: and that's why when God spoke to the israelites thru moses and gave all the ".. for all your generations" stuff, it applies to us?
iwillgonow: John:4:22: Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
iwillgonow: The law applied to the entire earth.
iwillgonow: Not just those who were chosen to receive it.
iwillgonow: And keep it.
iwillgonow: All must not kill or eat blood or they will die.
psycho314t: so why was it that we arent considered israelite born when u were talking about the feast of tabernacles?
jello13091: That's right, aren't the gentiles going to change some of the Jews even to believe in Jesus again?
iwillgonow: The law applied to the entire earth because the entire earth was under sin, and where there is sin, there is law.
psycho314t: right..
iwillgonow: Israelite born...hm.
jello13091: What?
iwillgonow: Perhaps a spiritual rebirth could be considered fitting for that passage.
iwillgonow: I don't know.
psycho314t: julie: the feast of tabernacles was that all "israelite born" are to live in tents or some other temporary dwellings for a week... and jacob said before it didnt apply to us cuz we werent israelite born.. and that confused me when i started thinking about it
jello13091: Ohhhhhhh
jello13091: Got it.
* please read our feast of tabernacles study for further information on this
06/16/01
psycho314t: have u looked at the new moon thing anymore?
iwillgonow: What about it?
psycho314t: about whether to do any extra bible study on the new moons, or about which new moon is a sabbath
iwillgonow: I stick with the one that happens in the fall.
iwillgonow: Gone in thirty seconds.
psycho314t: i thought you told us before that... ok, i'll wait
iwillgonow: Back.
psycho314t: i thought u made a big point out of telling us one time that the only new moon it made sense to observe was the one that starts a new year
iwillgonow: Well alright then, let's study it now.
iwillgonow: Search new moon.
iwillgonow: Rock and roll.
jello13091: Yeah you did say that.
jello13091: Search it where?
iwillgonow: Bible program..
jello13091: brb
psycho314t: 2Kin:4:22: And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.
2Kin:4:23: And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? [it is] neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, [It shall be] well.
psycho314t: 1Chr:23:31: And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:
psycho314t: 2Chr:2:4: Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual showbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
jello13091: moonS- plural
psycho314t: thats what i was thinking
iwillgonow: Meaning every year.
psycho314t: how can u tell that, tho?
jello13091: How do you know?
iwillgonow: Numbers 16:30 is clearly talking about descending into the physical earth, yet the Hebrew word used for "the pit" is Sheol, which people also think is Hell and the Underworld, so that is a great proof against it.
jello13091: What?
iwillgonow: I know based upon my understanding of it.
jello13091: The new moon.....to the pit?
iwillgonow: But we're studying it now.
iwillgonow: Just something I found while I was reading my search results.
jello13091: Ok.
psycho314t: Ezek:46:1: Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Ezek:46:2: And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of [that] gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
Ezek:46:3: Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
iwillgonow: New moon up top was singular.
psycho314t: so was sabbath
psycho314t: one sabbath per week... one new moon per month
iwillgonow: In the DAY of the new moon.
iwillgonow: One day.
iwillgonow: Not in the new moon of the month.
iwillgonow: (s)
jello13091: Why would new moons be plural in that last verse?
psycho314t: Isai:1:13: Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isai:1:14: Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].
psycho314t: Isai:66:22: For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isai:66:23: And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
psycho314t: brb
iwillgonow: Psal:81:3: Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
iwillgonow: Colo:2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
iwillgonow: Ezek:46:6: And in the day of the new moon [it shall be] a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish.
jello13091: So then a new moon wouldn't be considered a holy day if it was mentioned there.
iwillgonow: The one new moon is a holy day, when the trumpet is blown and the sacrifices were made.
iwillgonow: The rest are not.
jello13091: The Day of Atonement.
iwillgonow: The one close around there.
06/02/01
jello13091: having two Sabbaths in a row is kind of a challenge
iwillgonow: how so?
jello13091: well, it;s difficult staying attentive for a long amount of time, especially two dsays.
iwillgonow: I don't remember the Bible ever calling the right way "easy."
iwillgonow: That word was reserved the broad highway to hell.
iwillgonow: You get me
iwillgonow: ?
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: Easy is, well, easy, but the price is slightly out of my price range.
09/07/02
[13:05] <Jello13091> At the time of the feast of trumpets, when many were gathered at the holy city, the people assembled in the street that was before the water gate; "and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday." "And the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law."
[13:05] <Jello13091> it makes it sound like we're suposed to read the law
[13:05] <Jello13091> but, everytime she mentions this with Ezra it talks about how the city was in ruins and i think she ties that into why they read the law
[13:13] <clumsyraine> i was thinking there actually was a command to read the law once a year or something, or once a generation, i dont remember, but i cant find it
[13:14] <Jello13091> day of atonement, along with atoning and stuff?
[13:17] <clumsyraine> The writings of Moses were taught by Joshua to all Israel. "There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them." Joshua 8:35. This was in harmony with the express command of Jehovah providing for a public rehearsal of the words of the book of the law every seven years, during the Feast of Tabernacles.
[13:18] <clumsyraine> "Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates," the spiritual leaders of Israel had been instructed. "that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: and that their children, which have not known anything, may hear, and learn to fear the Lord your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it." Deuteronomy 31:12, 13. {PK 465.1}
[13:18] <clumsyraine> Deut:31:10: And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of [every] seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
[13:18] <clumsyraine> Deut:31:11: When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
[13:18] <clumsyraine> Deut:31:12: Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that [is] within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:
[13:18] <clumsyraine> Deut:31:13: And [that] their children, which have not known [any thing], may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
[13:20] <Jello13091> ok 1) how to we know that we still do that today, and 2) how do we know when the 7th year is?
[13:21] <clumsyraine> 1) er.... and 2) we've mentioned it before, and i dont think we ever figured out how we would know
[13:21] <clumsyraine> it goes along w/ the sabbatical and jubilee years
[13:22] <Jello13091> yeah but when is that?
[13:22] <clumsyraine> every 7th and 50th years, we dont know when
[13:23] <Jello13091> you think it would tie into all the sabbaths being on top of other sabbaths like this year?
[13:23] <clumsyraine> er... good question, but i still have no idea
[13:24] <Vicerant> If we don't know when it started, now we could remember the significance of this "once in seven years" overlapping, and do it now.
[13:25] <clumsyraine> we dont know that it's going to overlap once in seven years
[13:25] <Jello13091> yeah it could do it again in two years or something
[13:25] <Vicerant> The day the feasts are on rotate throughout the seven day week.
[13:26] <clumsyraine> last fall, all the feasts fell on monday, jacob
[13:26] <clumsyraine> this year theyre on saturday
[13:27] <Vicerant> I guess it doesn't go in order given how we chop the years/months up to fit them in their seasons.
[13:27] <Jello13091> yeah and lord's supper last year was on a wednesday
[13:28] <Jello13091> and it's on monday this year
[13:28] <clumsyraine> same w/ DoA
[13:28] <Jello13091> the only that remains in any type of constant order is pentecost by being on sunday
[13:28] <clumsyraine> yeah, because pentecost has to be on sunday
[13:59] <Jello13091> Exodus 12:18 even says in the jewish version, on the fourteenth day at even of the FIRST MONTH
[13:59] <Jello13091> for the Lord's Passover yet i wonder why they don't realize that when it says the first month, its the first month
[14:00] <clumsyraine> yeah... thats why i said earlier that i would think they couldnt be unobservant enough to call the 7th month the beginning of the actual year
[14:00] <clumsyraine> so i figured it was some other type of year, like the world now has civil/fiscal/work years, whatever
[14:01] <Jello13091> 7 weeks after passover they celebrate Shavuot, what does that sound like?!
[14:01] <clumsyraine> pentecost
[14:01] <clumsyraine> feast of firstfruits
[14:01] <Jello13091> yeah]
[14:01] <Jello13091> it sounds like pentecost!
[14:01] <Jello13091> they quote the exact same things
[14:02] <Jello13091> did the name pentecost come from the NT?
[14:02] <clumsyraine> pentecost didnt come til new testament
[14:02] <clumsyraine> feast of first fruits was the OT same thing
[14:02] <Jello13091> ok
[14:02] <clumsyraine> some time frame anyway
[14:02] <Vicerant> Why do we still keep these feasts that "Christians" don't observe?
[14:02] <Jello13091> and then comes sukkot which is tabernacles
[14:02] <Jello13091> they think Jesus took care of them all
[14:03] <Jello13091> that He fulfilled them
[14:03] <clumsyraine> did away with them
[14:03] <Vicerant> We don't believe they've come to fulfillment, exactly. If it isn't fulfilled, it is to be observed.
[14:03] <Jello13091> oh, i meant what jen said
[14:04] <Vicerant> "Christians" keep the Lord's Supper because they know it hasn't seen fulfillment yet. Same with us an tabernacles/atonement/etc.
[15:42] * clumsyraine wonders why rosh hashana and yom kippur are on the gregorian calendar but not sukkot
[15:43] <Jello13091> um i've seen it on calendars
[15:43] <Jello13091> also in mainstream judaism, yom kippur and rosh hashanah are the two most important
[15:44] <Jello13091> cause there's no school that day, and so forth
[15:44] <Jello13091> so it might be the only two listed on some to let people know
[15:44] <clumsyraine> hmm... i just noticed that on the calendar i have those are the only 2 listed
[15:44] <Jello13091> sukkot is nothing big really to them
