iwillgonow: And they don't care.
iwillgonow: k
psycho314t: if God saw His bible being totally misconstrued by the majority of the population of the world, dont you think He'd try to do something to fix it?
iwillgonow: One moment.
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Math:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
iwillgonow: Mark:13:31: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
iwillgonow: Luke:21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
iwillgonow: The true word shall not pass away, it has remained.
psycho314t: but how do we know what's true? if the most popular translation is error-prone, and the majority of ppl dont have access or ability to read the original hebrew...
iwillgonow: We must test them.
iwillgonow: As we said earlier, through study and research.
iwillgonow: Concordances, history...
iwillgonow: Prove all things to be either true or false.
psycho314t: all of those things are really easy in this day & age.. w/ all kinds of references at our fingertips.. but what about ppl of the past 2000 years? if they took everything at face value without any kind of questioning or researching or anything, how do u think that affected them?
iwillgonow: Even those at the time of Jesus were written in the Bible as "taking all things to the scriptures, proving whether what was said was true."
psycho314t: really? never seen that..
iwillgonow: Today we have different translations, back then they really didn't have but around 3, and the true one was clear from study, just as it is today.
iwillgonow: 3 of the Hebrew, that is.
psycho314t: ok.. makes sense, i think...
iwillgonow: I'll find the verse, then.
iwillgonow: "I think" is not good enough.
psycho314t: heh.. : ) ok then
iwillgonow: Acts:17:11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
iwillgonow: Study.
iwillgonow: So what is commanded that we test everything by?
psycho314t: ok.. but it still... ack, gotta find the words.. ok.. if people are to study and determine the validity of everything on their own... why is it that everyone is still teaching at least one major element of the bible completely contradictory to the bible itself?
iwillgonow: Because most don't study.
iwillgonow: You know that.
iwillgonow: So do they know what's right?
psycho314t: i dont know if my point is making sense.. ok, yes, exactly, they dont study. which goes back to my question.. maybe i'll elaborate on that question... no, they dont
iwillgonow: Who's fault is it that they don't study out their own salvation instead of letting some preacher just indoctrinate them with whatever he chooses, and mindlessly accept/agree/obey?
psycho314t: psycho314t: if God saw His bible being totally misconstrued by the majority of the population of the world, dont you think He'd try to do something to fix it? .... also, i guess, how do u think that affects all those that are just students, and they dont think they have any reason to disbelieve..... mindless... ok, u just pointed out the answer to that question before i even asked it
iwillgonow: Haha
iwillgonow: God has preserved His truth.
psycho314t: and its up to us to go out and find it
iwillgonow: That's what the 3 verses were for.
psycho314t: yeah.. ive heard that all my life.. never realized it was in 3 diff books tho
iwillgonow: Remember "Heaven and earth...pass away..." before His word passes away?
psycho314t: nope... His word shall never pass away
iwillgonow: Ah, correct.
iwillgonow: That means it has been preserved throughout all human history.
iwillgonow: Verbally at first, then written up to today.
iwillgonow: The mind was much greater thousands of years ago...
iwillgonow: Have your questions been answer completely, or just "I guess?"
psycho314t: yes, i do believe they have...
iwillgonow: k, where were we?
iwillgonow: Ah, the briars and thorns.
iwillgonow: I'll be at those verses when you're ready.
psycho314t: we were... yup i'm there
iwillgonow: "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."-Hebrews 6:8.
iwillgonow: What does this...mean?
psycho314t: new living translation of hebrew 6:8 = "But if a field bears thistles and thorns, it is useless. The farmer will condemn that field and burn it."
iwillgonow: A clear difference between translations there...so what does it mean?
iwillgonow: Is it talking about thorns and thistles?
psycho314t: from the paragraph before it, i might guess the field to be the person... and if its corrupted... its uselsess? but that would seem to be yet another contradiction...
iwillgonow: Let's break it down, like English class...
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: But that which beareth thorns and briers = what?
iwillgonow: What is it that "beareth thorns and briers?"
iwillgonow: (This verse is an extended metaphor)
psycho314t: yeah, it is.. i was trying to read the scripture around it
iwillgonow: Certainly, go ahead, get a feeling for the context, that is critical, and a good habit.
iwillgonow: Ah yes, from reading the text before the verse, I have re-affirmed the meaning of the extended metaphor.
iwillgonow: It is vertically aligned.
iwillgonow: (English has its importance
)psycho314t: haha, thats debatable
but thats what i thought at first.. then i started thru it again, and i confused myself : \iwillgonow: Haha...
iwillgonow: I'll help.
iwillgonow: Read this:
psycho314t: its talking at first about someone who sees everything God has to offer... and then walks away from it. right?
iwillgonow: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;
iwillgonow: let us go on unto perfection;
iwillgonow: us
psycho314t: O_O
iwillgonow: If they shall fall away,
iwillgonow: they
psycho314t: us... they... those who were once enlightened...
iwillgonow: they = us
iwillgonow: For the earth
iwillgonow: earth
iwillgonow: earth = us
psycho314t: earth = us = they...?
iwillgonow: receiveth blessing from God:
iwillgonow: yes
iwillgonow: we are the earth
iwillgonow: so that should open this up to you
iwillgonow: Hebr:6:7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Hebr:6:8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
iwillgonow: For [us] which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and [do good] , receiveth blessing from God:
psycho314t: we are the earth that soaks up God's word... but if we suddenly dry up into thorns & thistles.... no... ok, this is sad... this metaphor is just not sinking in...
iwillgonow: But [us] which beareth [sin] is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; [us's] end is to be [destroyed].
iwillgonow: You following now?
psycho314t: heyyy... ok, jacob just turned the lightbulb on or something... yeah, i am
iwillgonow: We who do good are blessed, we who sin are destroyed.
iwillgonow: Just as the earth that is watered produces food, and the earth that isn't watered produces thorns and thistles.
psycho314t: that almost seems backwards, when u put it that way tho...
iwillgonow: Well: the earth [us] which produce good herbs [deeds] is blessed of God, but that which produces thorns [sin] is to be destroyed.
iwillgonow: Any clearer?
psycho314t: i dunno... lemme try to illustrate how it just got jumbled up in my head..
iwillgonow: k
psycho314t: iwillgonow: We who do good (we do good things for God) are blessed (then we're rewarded), we who sin (opposite of doing good things for God) are destroyed (followed by the opposite of reward) iwillgonow: Just as the earth that is watered (first rewarded) produces food (then does good things for God), and the earth that isn't watered (not rewarded) produces thorns and thistles (doesn't in turn do good things for God) .... does that make any sense....?
iwillgonow: Lemme read it again.
iwillgonow: Ah, the watering thing.
iwillgonow: That is not a reward.
psycho314t: no?
iwillgonow: It is a "God waters all, but one produces good and the other bad" thing.
iwillgonow: Water continues into the second verse as an understood modifyer to the subject.
iwillgonow: Subject being the earth.
iwillgonow: Meaning it is understood that in both verses, the earth was watered, but only one produced good, the other bad.
iwillgonow: The one that produced good was blessed.
iwillgonow: The other must be destroyed.
psycho314t: hmm... ok... i guess i thought the point of it there was that one recieves the water and prospers, and the other doesn't recieve it, doesn't prosper, and is therefore condemned... but instead its.. the second one's refusal of the water that condemns it, instead of its lack of water... right? refuses the water, or Gods word... turns into thorns, or sin... and must be destroyed
iwillgonow: Nothing about refusal is inferred, it only states that the other bore thorns and thistles instead of good produce. The point is "If farmers keep the good and destroy the bad, does not God do the same with mankind?"
psycho314t: it doesnt mention refusal when talking about the earth.. but isnt that what it sed above that, talking about the "they" or "us"?
iwillgonow: Lemme check.
psycho314t: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, ..... if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance..."
iwillgonow: The context is stating that once you have come into the perfection of Jesus, and fall, you cannot come back, you have put Jesus to shame, and like the land that produces thorns and thistles, you must be destroyed.
psycho314t: kjv says "..if they shall fall away...", new living translation says "those... who then turn away".. i think maybe thats where it lost me
iwillgonow: And if you stay true, you will produce good food and be blessed.
iwillgonow: Hm, translation confusion...see what it does?
psycho314t: /me bangs her head on the keyboard... yes i do...
iwillgonow: Haha, that is why little words are still important.
iwillgonow: Even one word.
iwillgonow: Matters.
iwillgonow: So much so that anyone who has taken from or added to the Bible is guaranteed death.
psycho314t: yeah... i looked at the new living translation when we first started talking about it, then closed it & went back to kjv... took me this long to figure out what threw me off track
iwillgonow: Reve:22:19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
psycho314t: aha.. i figured u had a verse for that : ) how weird... new living translation calls the book of life a tree
iwillgonow: For what I say, I should very well have Biblical truth to base it on, otherwise it would be opinion, and subject to error.
psycho314t: this is true..
iwillgonow: The knowledge/opinions of man are nothing but foolishness when compared with the Bible/God's knowledge. (I have verse 4 that too
)psycho314t: heheheh... good for u
iwillgonow: Always ask someone who preaches something to show you their Biblical proof.
iwillgonow: So you know it's not just their own imaginings.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Biases,
iwillgonow: ect.
iwillgonow: The next verse is much more simple.
psycho314t: i think im about to cough up a lung or something... im gonna go get more water & cough drops. brb.. then i'll go back to hell
iwillgonow: It is meant to convey a single word: Destruction.
iwillgonow: Haha
iwillgonow: We'll stop after this, I'm barely keeping eyes open.
psycho314t: lemme read that verse...
psycho314t: yup... destruction pretty much sums it up
iwillgonow: Alright, we'll end there for now. Don't lose your place.
02/10/01
psycho314t: so.. on to "annihilation"?iwillgonow: This is an interesting sub-topic.
iwillgonow: I'll wait for you at the end of it.
psycho314t: the annihilation part?
iwillgonow: Yup
psycho314t: k.. done
iwillgonow: Anything to say about that section?
psycho314t: nothing ican think of.. what about u?
iwillgonow: What does science seem to do in this section?
psycho314t: im not totally sure.. seems almost to be trying to prove that even when the "ultimate atom" is "annihilated", its still not actually gone.. or... that could be totally off base. i dunno, what do you think?
iwillgonow: Yeah, but the more general idea is that science doesn't disprove the Bible, it supports it.
psycho314t: aha.. exactly
iwillgonow: As seen from the quote they illustrated with.
iwillgonow: "Dust to dust," not dust to nothingness.
iwillgonow: Though that is very possible for God.
iwillgonow: To do.
psycho314t: yup.. is the dust to dust thing from the bible?
iwillgonow: Next section isn't very informative... yes.
psycho314t: i thought it was, but they didnt have a verse # after it, so i started to wonder
psycho314t: oh yeah.. i remember reading the "where is hell" section..
iwillgonow: Gene:3:19: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
psycho314t: ah.. kewl
iwillgonow: I'll be at "theological absurditites."
psycho314t: that whole section makes alot of sense
iwillgonow: The "Where is hell?"
psycho314t: erm.. i thought we were reading theological absurdities
iwillgonow: I was wondering what took you so long.
psycho314t: heh... sorry
iwillgonow: No, I said meet me AT, not AFTER.
iwillgonow: Well, let's check it out anyway...haha
iwillgonow: The first verse quoted destroys a commonly held belief in many religions today, what is that belief?
psycho314t: the belief would be that the soul doesnt die
iwillgonow: Immortality of the soul.
psycho314t: see? i'm not totally out of it
psycho314t: they should have put the rest of romans 6:23 in there
psycho314t: it just adds to their point
psycho314t: for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord
iwillgonow: Nice.
iwillgonow: a total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions; extinction of life
iwillgonow: How come when you die, people think you are still...living?
psycho314t: good question..
iwillgonow: Or, do you understand the reason why people want to believe that they never really die?
iwillgonow: Why do they want to think they never really die?
psycho314t: cuz.. no one likes the thought of death?
iwillgonow: Bingo.
iwillgonow: It's just that simple.
iwillgonow: Cause they don't want to die!
iwillgonow: So they create their own belief that they can never truely die, and it makes them happier.
iwillgonow: Just more beginnings.
iwillgonow: To feel like there's no end.
iwillgonow: Would it be nice if we never died? Yeah, it would, but we do.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Whoa, read that hymn piece.
iwillgonow: A place nowhere, at no time?
psycho314t: yeah, i saw that
iwillgonow: Haha!
iwillgonow: I should read this more often!
psycho314t: heheh.. what about the one after it?
iwillgonow: Alright, I'll read it.
psycho314t: singing w/o tongues is a pretty funny thought too
iwillgonow: HAHAA! AH HA HA HAAAA!
iwillgonow: QUESTION--SINGING WITHOUT TONGUES? HAA!!!
iwillgonow: Haha, ah ha haaahaaa...oh, teary eyed...
psycho314t: hehehehe
iwillgonow: That was killer.
iwillgonow: Hardcore.
iwillgonow: Oh man...
psycho314t: lol, i noticed
iwillgonow: Never thought about just thinking about the hymns I used to sing.
iwillgonow: If they are gibberish.
psycho314t: ya, i know.. i hadnt either. we have some hymnals in there... i bet that'd be an interesting exercise, just going thru them looking for stuff like that
iwillgonow: Origin of Modern Hell... they spelled Origin "Origen." Where's the spell checker?
psycho314t: hahaha
iwillgonow: Perfection in man? I don't think so...
iwillgonow: Get to Tertullian, I'll be before the quote.
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: k, im there
iwillgonow: Alright, this is the history of this stuff, and here is its most renown author to Christianity, though the concept of a hell has been around for much longer than a thousand years, I'm sure.
iwillgonow: False doctrines have been around since just after the fall.
psycho314t: ya
iwillgonow: Estimated at 6,000 years or so ago.
iwillgonow: Finish that quote and get to Augustine...what a coincidence the Dark Ages had something to do with this, as it does many incorrect beliefs.
iwillgonow: I'm at the sentence in bold.
psycho314t: ok, so am i
iwillgonow: If I waved hell in your face during that time of moral darkness, it could scare you into believing incorrect doctrines, since anytime you would disagree with what I was teaching, I would simply point out "Do it or go to hell!"
psycho314t: yeah.. thats sad
psycho314t: reminds me of animal farm.. anyone disagrees, they get eaten by the dogs
iwillgonow: But true.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: "Hell" was the ultimate quieter of dessention.
iwillgonow: And crusher of truth.
iwillgonow: The next little paragraph points out something else important to know.
iwillgonow: Where do many of today's pagan beliefs originate from?
psycho314t: yeah, exactly. in that next quote... "So great a punishment says St. Augustine that no torment known to us can be compared with it." ... keywords there "..says St. Augustine..."
iwillgonow: Well, before that.
psycho314t: ya, i know..
iwillgonow: The old pagan systems of... iwillgonow: People worshiped Zeus.
iwillgonow: Athena, Hercules, Dionysus, Hephestus... anthropomorphic gods, and created beliefs to suit their own desires.
psycho314t: yup.. all the mythology... hades, etc...
iwillgonow: That stuff is still alive in some similar forms today, in Christianity. People twist God to be like a man, having the traits of man, the character of man... God is not a man.
psycho314t: ya
iwillgonow: God does not receive pleasure in the pain of humans, as man does.
iwillgonow: So hell is...wrong.
iwillgonow: It's contrary to His character of love.
iwillgonow: Read that paragraph after the quote, on the Catholic heritage of "hell."
psycho314t: ya.. ive always had thoughts similar to that... never thought i was right, tho.. k "...the damnation of unbaptized children." thats just wrong..
iwillgonow: Since the Catholic church was still the world's largest church at the time of the Dark Ages, they spread such incorrect teachings using hell.
iwillgonow: Read the poem exerpt, I'll be at "Three propositions against Hell."
psycho314t: ya, thats what i was just reading
iwillgonow: What does the exerpt say?
psycho314t: im not sure.. i was trying to figure out the last line
iwillgonow: If it gives you trouble, paraphrase each line in your own words, like you were taught in English. Type each line out so I can read it.
psycho314t: k, lemme think... what we've been taught has decieved us.. we're willing to believe us b/c it's the way we're brought up...
psycho314t: the... hmm... religion takes up where the home leaves off, maybe? and.. then i'm stuck..
iwillgonow: You are correct, religion continues what the home started...
iwillgonow: And all this is how the ones who came before have indoctinated those who come after, Jennifer. An endless circle.
iwillgonow: Your parents grow up, teach you, you teach your kids, they grow up, teach their kids...
iwillgonow: And the doctrine flows through the cycle, ever wrong and always taught to be correct.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Do you see?
iwillgonow: Why do you believe what you do, Jennifer?
psycho314t: b/c its what i was always taught
iwillgonow: Parents, school, church, friends...and guess what? You will grow up, and DO JUST AS THEY DID TO YOU, TO THE NEXT GENERATION, and thus the cycle continues...
psycho314t: yup... scary : \
iwillgonow: It never ends...
iwillgonow: Unless...
iwillgonow: You break the cycle.
iwillgonow: You destroy the chain.
iwillgonow: You break free.
psycho314t: yeah... by figuring out where the truth ends and all the false teachings begin
iwillgonow: Then you do not continue the cycle, you disrupt it, and GENERATIONS will not be taught from you, so they will not teach others, and the effect is exponential.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: I was indoctrinated as a child.
iwillgonow: As everybody.
iwillgonow: But the cycle, I choose to break it.
iwillgonow: And not continue what I was programmed with, but rather, discover the truth, and continue it.
psycho314t: yeah... and i was one of those mindless followers until pretty recently
iwillgonow: Thus my children will not continue the cycle, but will teach the freedom I taught them.
iwillgonow: And on, and on, and on...
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: To the three propositions against hell.
psycho314t: alright
iwillgonow: Finish reading the propostitions?
psycho314t: yep
iwillgonow: Now, let's read how he proves the first one, and then discuss it.
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Stop at "Where are the Wicked."
iwillgonow: Fairness, I never thought of it like that, how perfectly sensible...
psycho314t: i never thought of it like that either...
iwillgonow: If we together committed a sin, and I was given leprosy, but you a case of the flu, would that be fair? Of course not, different punishments for the same offense...brilliant.
iwillgonow: Simply brilliant.
iwillgonow: Thousands of years of difference in their punishments in "hell" is unfair.
iwillgonow: And God cannot be unjust.
psycho314t: you're right... the simplicity of some of this stuff is amazing..
iwillgonow: Many things are like this, Jennifer...they are just so simple it is amazing...
iwillgonow: Yet so many don't know.
iwillgonow: Makes me sad.
psycho314t: yeah... and like last night, arent willing to hear it
iwillgonow: Alright, let's read "Where are the wicked."
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Answer: In the earth, as dust, wherever they were burried.
psycho314t: it all goes back to that verse... dust unto dust..
iwillgonow: To "The judgement."
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Say something whenever something comes up you want to comment on, this is a long section.
psycho314t: alright
iwillgonow: The first paragraph is so amazingly simple.
iwillgonow: How utterly logical.
iwillgonow: Punishment before trial? That is not God's way.
psycho314t: yeah, i know..
iwillgonow:
iwillgonow: Why do I forget this good stuff?!
iwillgonow: Glad I'm reading it again.
psycho314t: heheh.. glad u showed it to me at all..
iwillgonow: Most people are scared to share what they've learned religiously with others...they miss out on a special feeling of happiness, I say.
iwillgonow:
psycho314t: <:) i agree completely
iwillgonow: We are not yet Judged, not yet.
iwillgonow: So are they that are being punished now? Not possible, they have not been sentenced.
iwillgonow: And the sentence shall be death, and death equals death.
iwillgonow: To live yet no more.
psycho314t: yup... no one's judged until judgement day.. which goes back to saying that everyone actually does die when they die.. they lie in wait in the earth until the judgement..
iwillgonow: Exactly.
iwillgonow: Therefore the only logical conclusion from these texts is that there can be no punishment meted out to the sinner, until all of his deeds have been weighed in God's balances. And that judgment takes place at the end of the age (end of the world).
iwillgonow: Do you know what else this disproves? hmm?
iwillgonow: That if you have grace, your deeds are not important, that you can sin.
iwillgonow: What does that sentence say? By our DEEDs we shall be judged.
psycho314t: ahh.. yeah
iwillgonow: You can sin until this is all over, even if you are pure, you can fall out of the way.
iwillgonow: Your deeds will determine your eternal destiny.
iwillgonow: Since God shall judge us from our lives' work.
iwillgonow: Whether it was good or bad.
psycho314t: yep
iwillgonow: I'm done.
psycho314t: i'm close
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: Judged from every single deed, secret or not, all of it will be "on the table.." now THAT is scary!!!
iwillgonow: Nothing to hide.
psycho314t: ya it is
iwillgonow: Nowhere to go.
iwillgonow: Just you and everybody else that's ever existed, all alive, all together, being judged out of the book that contains your life history.
iwillgonow: What a mental imgae.
iwillgonow: imgae
iwillgonow: IMAGE.
psycho314t: heh, u cant type any better than me
iwillgonow: All the humans in creation, together...
psycho314t: and thats another one of those unfathomable things...
iwillgonow: So many people, Adam, Eve, Moses, the disciples...
iwillgonow: Amazing.
iwillgonow: With me there with them all.
psycho314t: every person that ever walked on the earth...
iwillgonow: Onto "Punished on the Earth."
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: yet another unthinkable situation.. the time when the heavens and earth are all destroyed and recreated...
iwillgonow: Quite unimaginable, an amazing thing.
psycho314t: ok, here's a question for u.. if there is currently no hell... what do you think happened to lucifer and the fallen angels? did they just fall back into the ground or something?
iwillgonow: They are alive.
iwillgonow: They were "cast out" of heaven, they were not killed.
psycho314t: oh yeah... so theyre.. alive and walking the earth amongst us or what?
iwillgonow: Just as good angels do.
iwillgonow: We see them not.
iwillgonow: The Bible says that human eyes are "closed" to seeing such things.
iwillgonow: We are prevented from seeing the spiritual realm.
iwillgonow: But it exists, just like gravity does, yet we don't see it.
iwillgonow: Need a Bible supporting text for this?
psycho314t: ok.. i think i knew that, actually.. my mind just isnt all here : P
psycho314t: nope, i believe u
iwillgonow: Numb:22:31: Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
iwillgonow: Jennifer, believe no one, believe the Bible.
iwillgonow: Our eyes are closed to the sight of angels, but good and bad, they are among us, doing either the work of God or of Satan.
iwillgonow: Who tempts you Jennifer?
psycho314t: ya.. the reason i sed i believe u was b/c i remembered hearing it before. but i half knew when i sed that i believed u, u were gonna go find the scripture anyway
iwillgonow: Haha, so answer my question.
psycho314t: and... im thinking
psycho314t: erm... why dont u give me ur answer : \ ...
iwillgonow: You must answer for yourself.
psycho314t: oh, wait.. i think i get what ur getting at. i tempt myself, right?
iwillgonow: Ok, I'll give you a hint:
iwillgonow: The one that tempted Jesus is the same who tempts you.
psycho314t: doh.. ok
iwillgonow: So all those evil angels who walk the earth tempt all of us.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: And the good ones are here, if we call, they will answer, and with swords of fire, protect us.
iwillgonow: A sword of flame...
iwillgonow: Amazing. swords of fire? where's that?
iwillgonow: Gene:3:24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
psycho314t: aha.. kewl
iwillgonow: The ultimate weapon, a sword of fire...
iwillgonow: Unbreakable.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: So can they protect you? Oh yeeeeeaaaah.
psycho314t:
yup.. makes alotta senseiwillgonow: Are you done with the section?
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Interesting how death is compared to a deep sleep throughout the scriptures, yet people think they live...
iwillgonow: On to Eternal Death.
psycho314t: yeah, really..
iwillgonow: ...they shall not be...
iwillgonow: Haha! A list of the comparisons of the wicked, interesting.
psycho314t: eep, u got way ahead of me.. someone got online & started talking to me
iwillgonow: Keep up!
iwillgonow: We can finish this today.
iwillgonow: Only 42% to go. 42%?!
psycho314t: how'd u figure that out?
iwillgonow: Estimated from the scrollbar, distance above to distance below.
psycho314t: ohh.. estimate.. lol, ok, before u sed that, i was about to say "yeah, we're over halfway done.."
iwillgonow: Meet me at the end of the lsit.
iwillgonow: lsit? List.
psycho314t: alright.. gimme a couple mins to get there. ..? heh, i didnt even notice that typo
psycho314t: ok, sorry, that was alot more than a couple mins : \ ... but im there now]
iwillgonow: Know anyone who has died?
iwillgonow: Yes or no is sufficient.
psycho314t: yeah, several..
iwillgonow: Good to know they are not being tormented as we speak, huh?
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Meet you at "bottomless pit."
psycho314t: alright
iwillgonow: Read that section through, it is an answer to those who would say "Well what about the bottomless pit?"
psycho314t: yeah, i think it is... another mis-translated word
iwillgonow: And how important it is to understand it correctly, the "hell" depends upon it.
iwillgonow: Now, the hardest of them all: EVERLASTING, and what it means.
iwillgonow: This is the cornerstone of the hell.
psycho314t: ya
iwillgonow: Read this carefully, it is the key to destroying the hell.
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: Begin.
iwillgonow: Fascinating...
psycho314t: it is... its a little hard to grasp at first, but it does make sense aaaaargh <:( i hafta go eat
iwillgonow: Save your place.
iwillgonow: I'll be here.
psycho314t: i know.. i'll bbl
psycho314t: still there? one of my relatives just showed up... dunno how long he'll stay
iwillgonow: k
psycho314t: you done w/ everlasting punishment?
iwillgonow: Whoa, you're reading?
psycho314t: ...? yeah.. oh, i guess i wasnt very clear.. relative here = can't eat yet.. so i came back in here
iwillgonow: Let me in!
psycho314t: d/c again? <: \
iwillgonow: ...you there?
iwillgonow: Yeah.
psycho314t: uhm.. yeah? am i lagged or something??
iwillgonow: No. I'm finished.
iwillgonow: So what idea did you get from the last section?
psycho314t: it reminded me of something earlier on the page.. something like '..a death that doesnt die makes about as much sense as a life that doesnt live..'
iwillgonow: Everlasting has to mean "until completely burned up," otherwise it makes no sense.
iwillgonow: As you stated above.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Onward to Eternal Damnation then.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Done.
iwillgonow:
iwillgonow: I'm waaaaaaiting....haha
psycho314t: hey, its hard to cough & read at the same time
iwillgonow: haha! ok
iwillgonow: Eternal Damnation means what?
psycho314t: lets see... "damnation" = decision, so its basically a decision that lasts forever
iwillgonow: Yes, an eternal separation.
iwillgonow: Not firey hellfire.
psycho314t: exactly
iwillgonow: Now to conquer the word "Everlasting," a favorite of those who would believe in hell.
psycho314t: oh yeah, i was gonna say something else earlier.. lemme see if i can find it again
iwillgonow: k
psycho314t: yknow the part about the bottomless pit earlier? even in revelations where its talking about casting the devil into the "bottomless pit", it says ".. til the thousand years should be fulfilled: and then after that he must be loosed a little season."
psycho314t: no mention of eternity there revelations 20:1-3
iwillgonow: Yes, and the bottomless pit=what?
psycho314t: bottomless pit = the wreckage of the earth after the second coming/judgement day?
iwillgonow: Correct.
iwillgonow: Satan, for a thousand years, will be left on this desolate earth, alone, to contemplate what he has done.
iwillgonow: He will have to realize he has destroyed humanity.
iwillgonow: Killed,
iwillgonow: lied,
iwillgonow: ruined a beautiful creation of God.
psycho314t: yup
psycho314t: wonder what kind of effect it will have on him
iwillgonow: And he will know he was wrong.
iwillgonow: And admit it to the entire universe.
iwillgonow: He will say "God is just, good, holy forever."
iwillgonow: And will be destroyed.
psycho314t: = biblical verse or jacobs opinion?
iwillgonow: Haha! Good good good, you passed my test!
iwillgonow: One moment.
psycho314t:
iwillgonow: Oh where is that verse?
psycho314t:
iwillgonow: Reve:20:2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Reve:20:3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
iwillgonow: Here is Satan's thousand years alone, to contemplate what he's done.
psycho314t: hey, thats the verse i qoute a couple mins ago
iwillgonow: But where is the verse where they acknowledge God, all the evil ones?
psycho314t: quoted*
psycho314t: dunno.. revelations 20:8 sorta sounds opposite of that.. he'll be loosed out of his prison, and go on to decieve nations.. and.. now i hafta go eat
iwillgonow: Reve:20:7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
iwillgonow: Indeed, he shall have one more "ride" before the end.
iwillgonow: Alright.
psycho314t: bbs
iwillgonow: So, where were we? I dunno.
psycho314t: Everlasting or Eternal Fire, i think...
iwillgonow: This article is long, we're not gonna finish tonight.
psycho314t: we might... we only have like 1/4 left..
iwillgonow: Everlasting or Eternal Fire, right?
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Read the first verse yet?
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: I'm ready for Everlasting or Eternal Fire.
iwillgonow: You know something that's scared me?
psycho314t: hmm?
iwillgonow: Lucifer was created perfect, as were the angels that choose his side.
iwillgonow: Yet evil was found in them, and they fell.
iwillgonow: I would fear it would happen again...to me.
iwillgonow: To be in Heaven, perfect, and lose it all.
psycho314t: i never thought about it like that..
iwillgonow: Scary to think of, but not possible.
iwillgonow: Revelation says there will be no more of the past.
iwillgonow: No more sin.
iwillgonow: Tears.
iwillgonow: Pain.
iwillgonow: Reve:21:4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
psycho314t: "...and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither..." yeah... it doesnt mention sin there tho...
iwillgonow: No more death.
iwillgonow: The wages of sin is death.
iwillgonow: There can be no sin without death.
psycho314t: aha.. very astute
iwillgonow: So after this world, there will never again be any sin in all the universe.
iwillgonow: A happy, scary thought.
iwillgonow: No more world, you know.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: I'm at the Sodom and Gomorrah verse in bold.
psycho314t: same
iwillgonow: Read it?
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? They were an example, you know, of the punishment of the wicked in the end.
psycho314t: nope, they arent... proving the mistaught meaning of eternal fire..
iwillgonow: Correct.
iwillgonow: The fire WAS eternal: It completely and utterly devoured the city to dust.
iwillgonow: It WAS everlasting: It did not go out until there was nothing left but ashes.
psycho314t: yeah.. and the destruction it caused was everlasting.. the cities were never rebuilt, right?
iwillgonow: They can't be rebuilt, there is nothing but dust and ashes to put back together!
psycho314t: haha.. good point
iwillgonow: Read through the next bold verse.
psycho314t: yeah, thats what i just finished
iwillgonow: The example is that the ungodly shall be ashes.
iwillgonow: Eternal fire will kill them, till there is nothing left but black soot.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: They can never be restored.
iwillgonow: I'll be at "For Ever and Ever."
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Get to the end of the commentary after the first bold verse.
psycho314t: ok, done w/ that commentary
iwillgonow: Ever felt bad about doing something wrong knowingly?
psycho314t: of course
iwillgonow: Such is the meaning of the verse.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: It doesn't end, as long as you serve evil.
iwillgonow: But forever?
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: Only as long as you serve evil.
iwillgonow: Your mind cannot rest.
psycho314t: ya
iwillgonow: Read through the next two bold verses, and the commentary at the end. Another example of someplace that is not forever and forever burning.
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: ok, thats sorta confusing... after revelations 14:11, it looks like its talking about the torment of a living person who is serving evil... but then after it presents verse 10, it talks about the torment being during a "special class of living just before Christ's second coming"...
iwillgonow: 10 and 11 match.
iwillgonow: In Revelation.
psycho314t: how do u mean?
iwillgonow: Reve:14:9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Reve:14:10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Reve:14:11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his...
iwillgonow: If you choose the mark of the beast, you will be punished, and you will be tormented, and your pain will ascend, and you will have no rest, who worship [present tense] the beast.
psycho314t: yeah, who worship is present tense... but it sez in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb, which isnt present tense...
iwillgonow: It all matches, read it from the Bible.
iwillgonow: If...then.
psycho314t: i am, i have my bible in my lap... but im still confused : \
iwillgonow: Start at verse 9.
psycho314t: i did..
iwillgonow: It says "If" any man blah blah blah, THEN blah blah blah; AND they shall have no rest blah blah blah who WORSHIP [present tense] the beast.
iwillgonow: Not who worshiped, as if they did it before and are now paying for it in hell.
iwillgonow: But who presently worships the beast will [because this was written before the beast] be tormented.
iwillgonow: Think of when this was written. It is speaking in a future tense of things happening in present tense.
iwillgonow: Are you reading KJV or that monkey translation?
psycho314t: heh.. kjv i wonder what the other translation sez..
iwillgonow: Alright, we'll break it down verse by verse when you say "Ok."
psycho314t: aaargh... yeah, the new living translation puts all of it into future tense : \ i shouldntve looked at it.. i almost had figured it out...
psycho314t: i think its the punctuation in this thats messing me up.. it all seems like its one long sentence talking about the same time frame... but there are colons i keep reading over that seem to discern b/w what's future & present...
iwillgonow: Reve:14:9: [This is a man seeing the future, and explaining it in past tense because he already saw it] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, [this is an angel saying "if," which means in the future, OUR time] If any man worship the beast and his image, [Same here, OUR time] and receive his mark in his forehead, [OUR time again] or in his hand,
iwillgonow: Understand what is going on with that verse? alright...
psycho314t: yeah, i get that one
iwillgonow: K, I'm gonna do the next one.
iwillgonow: Reve:14:10: [This is speaking to OUR time] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, [This is also speaking of OUR time, of what "IS" in our time] which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; [This is speaking of those who, in OUR time, ARE tormented, except is uses "shall" because it hasn't happened yet when this was written] and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
iwillgonow: Does that verse make sense?
psycho314t: how is the presence of the holy angels/lamb part still in our time?
iwillgonow: Because we are in their presence right now, everybody is, always has been. Just because they aren't right in front of us doesn't mean Jesus and the angels can't see us.
psycho314t: wait..
psycho314t: ok, yeah, i agree w/ that...
psycho314t: but then what about the quote from that site... ""For ever and ever," in this verse, has reference to the torment of a special class living just before Christ's second coming, and can only mean a comparatively short time."
psycho314t: that sounds like its not talking about our time...
iwillgonow: What does the word "preceding" mean?
psycho314t: before..?
iwillgonow: Get a dictionary, I don't want a guess!
iwillgonow:
psycho314t: Definitions of preceding:
adjective: existing or coming before
adjective: of a person who has held and relinquished a position or office
adjective: preceding in time or order
iwillgonow: The Bible, when these verses are read contiguously, makes it simple and clear. What confuses you is that the person who wrote this paper is talking about three verses Out Of Order, and explaining them out of order.
iwillgonow: And referring back to ones already read.
iwillgonow: It is confusing.
psycho314t: that, & reading his backwards explanation of it b4 i saw the way its actually written in the bible..
iwillgonow: Just stick with the verses in order, and the explanation I gave you, if you understand it...do you understand it?
psycho314t: yes... your explanation makes sense
iwillgonow: "And the streams thereof
iwillgonow: Start there and read through the commentary. k
iwillgonow: It makes sense on this one's organization.
psycho314t: heh.. thats a relief
iwillgonow: I will scare you greatly when we finish this subject.
psycho314t: o_O
iwillgonow: Haha, I'll tell you something that will scare you.
psycho314t: lol.. ok, im down to whoever's greek lexicon...
psycho314t: greenfields greek lexicon, thats it
iwillgonow: Or now, I could tell you, if you want.
psycho314t: go for it...
iwillgonow: Consider this:
iwillgonow: Forever and ever is a definite period of time.
iwillgonow: God's love is forever and ever.
psycho314t: eek..
iwillgonow: We shall have eternal life forever and ever.
iwillgonow: But!
iwillgonow: God is not a liar.
iwillgonow: And He said "There shall be NO MORE DEATH."
iwillgonow: So, something there is missing that we must find.
iwillgonow: He must love us forever and ever, and we MUST live and never die, so something is there we aren't seeing.
iwillgonow: There must be times when forever means...forever.
psycho314t: "Forever" is translated from the Greek word aion, and is defined by all lexicographers to mean-a period of time, limited by surrounding circumstances,-a lifetime,-and when speaking of God it means as long as God lives, eternally, never ending. When speaking of man it means a lifetime or until death." .... <= something to do w/ that, maybe...?
iwillgonow: But hell? No, it is disproven tens of times over in the Bible, with verses such as the ones we've read today.
iwillgonow: Perhaps God loves forever and ever, meaning...well, something like you just said.
iwillgonow: God is love, how could He stop loving?
iwillgonow: Logic, simplicity, common sense, we must use.
iwillgonow: If we were to have paradise for a bazillion years, then stop existing, it wouldn't of been enough for me...
psycho314t: ya.. and if someone would try to turn that around... and say God's forever could mean there's an eternal hell... it goes back yet again to God is a God of love and just wouldnt do that...
iwillgonow: How could God just say "Well, your time is up, humans. Time to stop existing, time to lose perfection, because...well, just because, no reason really."
psycho314t: yeah, really.. 'b/c im God & i feel like it'?
iwillgonow: It makes no sense.
iwillgonow: He does not take life for no reason.
iwillgonow: If we are perfect.
iwillgonow: We should live for all time.
psycho314t:yeah..
iwillgonow: And if His love is forever and ever, it, just cannot end.
iwillgonow: Yet hell?
iwillgonow: So many examples against it.
psycho314t:
iwillgonow: It cannot be true, it is plainly pointed out that the fate of the wicked is death, to burn up, and become ashes.
iwillgonow: This is where I've struggled with this subject: I know that there is a verse where God's love is eternal, and where we shall live forever and ever....................it cannot be finite.
iwillgonow: Reve:22:5: And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
iwillgonow: Reve:15:7: And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
iwillgonow: Reve:11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
iwillgonow: BUT JESUS SHALL ALWAYS REIGN?!?
iwillgonow: Reve:10:6: And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
iwillgonow: GOD SHALL NEVER CEASE TO EXIST!?!
iwillgonow: Reve:5:14: And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
iwillgonow: but He does live forever....
iwillgonow: I know it...
iwillgonow: :(
iwillgonow: Reve:4:9: And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
iwillgonow: A universe without God... I cannot take it.
psycho314t: <: ( nor can i...
iwillgonow: Does He live...forever?
iwillgonow: Then how do we distinguish between "forever" being a limited timespan and "forever" being for ever and ever and evermore?
psycho314t: i dont know...
iwillgonow: There cannot be a hell, and God cannot die. HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM
iwillgonow: And this is the delimma I've had since I found this out.
psycho314t: <: (
iwillgonow: There is no hell, God lives forever...how do these two work together? The key is in the...context, it must be.
iwillgonow: Let's find an example:
iwillgonow: Reve:1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
iwillgonow: Read before and after this verse.
psycho314t: alright
iwillgonow: The keys of hell and of death? That sounds like they're two different things?!
iwillgonow: What was hell translated from in that verse?
iwillgonow: I need a greek concordance.
psycho314t: well, lets see.. according to that page, the only things the word hell was translated from in the new testament were hades (sheol, grave), ge-enna (the valley of Hinnom; deep, narrow glen south of Jerusalem), and tartaroo (darkness) grave and death, maybe..? i dunno..
iwillgonow: 86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
iwillgonow: Excellent guess, it is the grave.
iwillgonow: I found a greek concordance.
iwillgonow: Online.
psycho314t: aha.. kewl
iwillgonow: Amazing, come here.
iwillgonow: http://www.blueletterbible.org/
iwillgonow: See how many times it is the grave!
iwillgonow: Because [3754] thou wilt [1459] [0] not [3756] leave [1459] (5692) my [3450] soul [5590] in [1519] hell [86], neither [3761] wilt thou suffer [1325] (5692) thine [4675] Holy One [3741] to see [1492] (5629) corruption [1312].
iwillgonow: Soul in the grave, not hell!
psycho314t: wow.. yeah
iwillgonow: And the proof:
iwillgonow: O death [2288], where [4226] [is] thy [4675] sting [2759]? O grave [86], where [4226] [is] thy [4675] victory [3534]?
iwillgonow: The grave is the word. This proves it.
iwillgonow: Hell IS the grave.
iwillgonow: And [2532] I looked [1492] (5627), and [2532] behold [2400] (5628) a pale [5515] horse [2462]: and [2532] his [846] name [3686] that sat [2521] (5740) on [1883] him [846] was Death [2288], and [2532] Hell [86] followed [190] (5719) with [3326] him [846].
iwillgonow: Death brings what?...the grave.
iwillgonow: With death comes the grave.
iwillgonow: Jennifer, there is no hell.
iwillgonow: It just isn't right.
iwillgonow: AH HAAA!
psycho314t: ya! ur right! and that helps w/ the dilemma now, right? death to sinners = the grave, everlasting, neverending death.. you never come back from it. its not the possibility of "forever and ever" not being literally forever.. its the finality of the forever in the case of death/"hell"...
iwillgonow: And [2532] the sea [2281] gave up [1325] (5656) the dead [3498] which [3588] were in [1722] it [846]; and [2532] death [2288] and [2532] hell [86] delivered up [1325] (5656) the dead [3498] which [3588] were in [1722] them [846]: and [2532] they were judged [2919] (5681) every man [1538] according to [2596] their [846] works [2041]. and i wonder if im making any sense whatsoever but i'll continue anyway
iwillgonow: And [2532] the sea [2281] gave up [1325] (5656) the dead [3498] which [3588] were in [1722] it [846]; and [2532] death [2288] and [2532] hell [86] delivered up [1325] (5656) the dead [3498] which [3588] were in [1722] them [846]: and [2532] they were judged [2919] (5681) every man [1538] according to [2596] their [846] works [2041].
iwillgonow: lOOK!
psycho314t: so that means when ur talking about God, Gods love, etc being forever... there is no finality in God's love.. so it all makes perfect sense... im LOOKING!
iwillgonow: HELL DELIVERS UP ITS DEAD! PEOPLE ARE DEAD IN HELL!!!! IT IS THE GRAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!
iwillgonow: THIS IS PERFECT!
iwillgonow: Hell cannot deliver up it's dead if everybody there is still alive and suffering!
iwillgonow: Don't you see/
iwillgonow: ?
iwillgonow: It must be the grave!
psycho314t: yes i do... i see exactly what u mean
iwillgonow: Irrefutable.
iwillgonow: There is no hell.
iwillgonow: I am more convinced now than ever.
iwillgonow: Wow.
iwillgonow: There is only the cold earth when you die.
iwillgonow: And it's like a deep, dreamless sleep.
psycho314t: nothingness..
iwillgonow: Still stinks, but better than eternal hellfire!!!!!!! Yaaahoooo!!!!
psycho314t: haha, i agree
iwillgonow: Now to not die, that's all I need now. Hahahahahaaaaa
psycho314t: heh
iwillgonow: And like you said, if the fire is "eternal" and doesn't go out until it is complete, then God's love is eternal...how'd you say it again?
psycho314t: psycho314t: ya! ur right! and that helps w/ the dilemma now, right? death to sinners = the grave, everlasting, neverending death.. you never come back from it. its not the possibility of "forever and ever" not being literally forever.. its the finality of the forever in the case of death/"hell"...
psycho314t: so that means when ur talking about God, Gods love, etc being forever... there is no finality in God's love.. so it all makes perfect sense...
iwillgonow: Yes!
iwillgonow: Permanent death.
iwillgonow: Permanent love.
psycho314t: permanent love.. exactly
iwillgonow: Everlasting death, neverending death...so, Everlasting love, neverending love and reign, absolutely perfect!
iwillgonow: You solved it.
psycho314t: yay :D
iwillgonow: I...
iwillgonow: it is solved...
iwillgonow: amazing
02/16/01
iwillgonow: Hey! Did we finish the hell article???
psycho314t: actually, i dont think we did...
iwillgonow: I just thought of that.
iwillgonow: For Ever and Ever
iwillgonow: That where we at?
psycho314t: i thought of it a couple times this week.. but never went back to see how much we had left
psycho314t: aha.. yup, i think it is
iwillgonow: k
iwillgonow: Oh yeah, the confusing organizational skills right here...
psycho314t: ya, i just noticed that
iwillgonow: The word forever is in quotes, start at that paragraph.
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: This paragraph makes perfect sense of how God could live forever, and never end, since His lifetime is...well, forever. Excellent.
psycho314t: yup : )
iwillgonow: Read through that next bold quote. (Tells why earrings are a sign of slavery/servitude)
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: ah.. i'd never heard that about earrings before.
iwillgonow: Did yah finish the quote yet?
iwillgonow: I love it, love it, love it! (Studying)
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Alright, go through the next one.
iwillgonow: Brilliant!
iwillgonow: The term "for ever," as used in the 22nd verse, means then, "as long as he liveth."
iwillgonow: Perfectly logical, and exemplary English techniques.
iwillgonow: brb, food burning.
psycho314t: ya, ur right about the logic.. and ok
psycho314t: brb too, gonna get water
psycho314t: back
psycho314t: hmm... hope u didnt burn down the house along w/ the food
iwillgonow: Back.
iwillgonow: Are you where you're supposed to be yet????
psycho314t: uhm.. yeah, as far as i know?
iwillgonow: Alright, I'll meet you at "Their worm dieth not..."
psycho314t: alright
iwillgonow: (The Jonah example is excellent)
psycho314t: yeah it is
iwillgonow: Another ultimate example is soon, read through the second black quote under the next heading quickly!
iwillgonow: WoW
iwillgonow: The true deffinition of "shall not be quenched" is mine.
iwillgonow: That is killer!
iwillgonow: WOW-HOW-HOW!
iwillgonow: Did you read it yet?!?
psycho314t: yeah, i read it... i think im gonna read it again tho, hang on
iwillgonow: That is like the cornerstone of the hell people's theory, that the fire burns forever, and can never be put out!
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: WHY DO YOU READ SO SLOW?!?
iwillgonow: Comon! This is exciting!
psycho314t: ok.. it cant be put out, but it goes out.. makes sense..
psycho314t: : \
iwillgonow: Andele! b/c i have too many distractions and i end up going thru stuff twice
iwillgonow: Do it right the first time, duh.
psycho314t: : \ almost everything i read, i read more than once
iwillgonow: Good habit, for important things.
psycho314t: and this would be important, no?
iwillgonow: Take your time if that's your reason, but the "distractions" are detrimental, and should be eliminated.
psycho314t: distractions = tv in the next room that wont go away
iwillgonow: Shut door.
psycho314t: does no good anyway, the wall heater passes sound just as well as the open door
iwillgonow: "Turn tv down plz."
psycho314t: tried it enuff to know it doesnt work
iwillgonow: Headphones?
psycho314t: i dont really like headphones.. but i guess it would work
iwillgonow: "And they shall go forth,
iwillgonow: I'm there.
psycho314t: my headphones arent working, hang on
iwillgonow: Plug into speakers, that helps.
psycho314t: haha lol, not into speakers, into cdrom.. speakers are too far away.. and the music doesnt sound as good thru headphones : \
iwillgonow: Of course, cd music sound poor, and your speakers are right there behind your monitor!
psycho314t: but the speaker w/ the headphone jack is over there by the scanner
iwillgonow: Pick up, move close temporarily, walla.
psycho314t: doesnt move... attached to the one on this side of the monitor by a short cord : \ believe me, ive tried many times
iwillgonow: Alright then.
psycho314t: i can do it, but i hafta practically sit on the desk
iwillgonow: Worse, no.
iwillgonow: Alright, you where you should be? hrmm.. i just thought... i dunno if itll help the distance, but if i unplug the left speaker from the right speaker, the headphones should still get both sides sound, right?
psycho314t: no, hang on, lemme try this.. ack. nope.. its the electricity cord thats not letting me move it oh well.. where am i reading to?
iwillgonow: "And they shall go forth, and look upon k
iwillgonow: Alright, read it through and its commentary. k k
iwillgonow: How bout them apples?
psycho314t: heh.. no apples after the worms get done w/ them
iwillgonow: Haha!!!!
iwillgonow: ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa!
iwillgonow: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh...
iwillgonow: You get that last message "Oh my sides?"
psycho314t: uhm... no?
iwillgonow: Yahoo, said "Error, your message was not sent." Just checking.
psycho314t: weird
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: OH my sides..
iwillgonow: Anyway, read through the first bold quote of the next section.
psycho314t: lol.. i didnt think it was that funny
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: Perfect irony, your timing was perfect.
psycho314t: heh
psycho314t: & im done
iwillgonow: Are you ready for something truely joyful?
psycho314t: sure?
iwillgonow: Read the next bold quote, and read it understanding it is being spoken to the Origin of Evil himself, and grow joyful.
iwillgonow: And never shalt thou be any more...............
psycho314t: that is a very joyful thought...
iwillgonow: Satan will die, he will not live forever in hell to torment anyone. He shall perish as all other sinners will, burned to dust.
iwillgonow: There will be no sin, no sinners, and no devil, and all will be bliss and joy forevermore.
iwillgonow: Forevermore
iwillgonow: Good word.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Let's read what those who will watch Satan die will cry out.
iwillgonow: The entire earth will yell in joy that its tyrant is dead, and they are finally free at last.
iwillgonow: Even animals.
iwillgonow: Who suffer because of him.
iwillgonow: Fish too.
iwillgonow: !Talking fish?!
psycho314t: yeah.. what a thought.. every creature on the earth cheering...
iwillgonow: Yup.
iwillgonow: Donkeys can talk, so why not the little fishies?
psycho314t: hehehe : ) i can just see little smiling fish swimming around...
iwillgonow: All that live on this planet suffer because of Satan, so rightly when they are freed, they will all praise their savior, and a savior He will be indeed.
iwillgonow: Haha! Yeah...
iwillgonow: Read through the next section, it's short, I'm at "The true gospel incentive."
iwillgonow: I am done...read it all to the end.
psycho314t: ah.. ok
psycho314t: wow.. we actually finished it
iwillgonow: Yeah.
iwillgonow: No hell. There is no hell.
iwillgonow: Almost amazing, so many believe there is.
iwillgonow: Made it so hard to even think of it being untrue.
iwillgonow: I'm grateful I found this.
iwillgonow: The knowledge is a treasure greater than the finest gold.
psycho314t: yeah.. ok, i wanna clarify something.. what we've established is that when you die, you're just dead.. everyone will be in the ground until judgement day. right?
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: Thousands of years of dead.
iwillgonow: All dust.
iwillgonow: Under our feet.
iwillgonow: And we will join them when we die.
iwillgonow: As dirt once again.
psycho314t: its good to know that there's no hell... but its also kinda sad to think that all the ppl who you're taught were in heaven "watching over you" arent there.. that theyre actually nowhere, instead of already with god & jesus & everyone else...
iwillgonow: The Resurrection will be a magnificent image indeed: Billions of human beings, all that have ever been, on the face of the earth at the same time.
iwillgonow: Yes, that is also true, since if they are dust, they are not in Heaven.
iwillgonow: Think Jennifer...
iwillgonow: it is not fair for one to fry longer than another.
iwillgonow: Neither then to have bliss for thousands of years more than another.
iwillgonow: It makes perfect sense.
iwillgonow: All that go, with the exception of those who have been taken to Heaven by God Himself, such as Elijah, go together.
iwillgonow: Do you understand? yeah, the thought of all humans on the earth at once is pretty awesome..
psycho314t: i dunno. i guess it makes sense when you put it like that, but... i dunno... its still kinda sad to me, thats all
iwillgonow: It is sad, but do you understand that it is true, and must be, if there is no Hell, there cannot be ones in Heaven early, that would be unfair.
iwillgonow: Just as Cain burning for a thousand years more than another murderer would be unfair.
psycho314t: yeah, i get that
iwillgonow: Just let me know you know it's true.
iwillgonow: Jennifer...
psycho314t: it logically makes sense.. i think im still in the process of grasping it, tho
iwillgonow: They are at rest.
iwillgonow: There are humans in Heaven now.
iwillgonow: Elijah of course, and Methusaleh, and others.
psycho314t: yeah...
iwillgonow: God made some men of history so great, they were taken to Heaven without seeing death.
iwillgonow: They became perfect.
psycho314t: i know
iwillgonow: There was no need to stay here anymore, they had served their purpose.
iwillgonow: My point is...
iwillgonow: Maybe the one you think of isn't watching you, but Elijah is!
iwillgonow: And he loves you I'm sure.
iwillgonow:
iwillgonow: The one you think of isn't watching you, correction.
iwillgonow: I've entertained thoughts of friends past'd away as angels... a beautiful thought.
iwillgonow: Flying over the sky, and all space.
iwillgonow: Shimmering, their wings ablaze in the sun.
iwillgonow: If they made it, they will do that in the end.
iwillgonow: And so will we.
iwillgonow: Our time is not yet up, so we better get in gear, or the flights of a thousand solar systems will be out of reach, and all the heavens we will never see...a sad thought indeed.
psycho314t: yeah, thats exactly what im talking about.. just suddenly being thrown into reality that theyre not already enjoying that like we thought they were.. i dunno.. i think.. yeah, maybe its hard to let go of that idea b/c thinking of loved ones that are gone being neverendingly happy and being w/ god makes it easier for them to not be here anymore, maybe... yeah, it is sad..
iwillgonow: It lessens the pain to think them in bliss.
psycho314t: yeah, it does
psycho314t: and the pain sorta comes back realizing theyre not
iwillgonow: But they are not. So instead, I dwell on the days when we will laugh and fellowship together in Heaven, on green green grass, in bright white robes, smiling, hugging, loving so much.
05/27/01
iwillgonow: Finding it funny, nearly histerical, that I never realized that if you believe in hell, then you get to receive punishment before the day of judgement, BEFORE YOU ARE JUDGED GOOD OR BAD! How...unfair, ridiculous, not logical...
psycho314t: so many common beliefs arent logical.. just blindly accepted..
iwillgonow: Haha, let’s see, I get burned for who knows how many years, then Jesus comes back, says I’m holy and going to Heaven, and I go “But Jesus, how come I went to hell and suffered all that time then?” And Jesus says “Uh...well, um, uh, hm, ....”
psycho314t: i dont think most ppl realize judgement is in the future. they assume u die, are judged, and go wherever right away
iwillgonow: REVELATION says that the great day of judgement is at the end of the world, NOT when every little person dies.
psycho314t: and how many ppl read revelation?
iwillgonow: I thought it was the most attractive, entertaining, popular book of the Bible?
iwillgonow: Fire and brimstone and beasts and spirits and...
psycho314t: maybe... to all the ppl that read it just for entertainment. i thought we decided that most churches dont teach revelation tho?
iwillgonow: I suppose they don’t know what hardly any of the beasts or spirits or symbolic things symbolize, so they just stay away from it and say it’s a “locked book,” like Daniel, which goes directly contrary to the title of the book: REVELATION, a revealing.