Jesus: the God of the old testament
06/01/01
iwillgonow: Who has "GOD" been for four thousand years, though before Jesus all thought it was God?
psycho314t: Jesus
iwillgonow: And I have proof.
iwillgonow: Ever since Adam's sin, the human race had been cut off from direct communion with God; the intercourse between heaven and earth had been through Christ; but now that Jesus had come "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3), the Father Himself spoke.
iwillgonow: When Jesus was baptized, that is.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: So that backs that up.
psycho314t: ya
jello13091: He was the I AM with the burning bush that Moses saw.
iwillgonow: Jesus was the one that all called "GOD" for thousands of years.
iwillgonow: Exactly.
iwillgonow: And apparently, not very many at all knew who they were worshipping.
psycho314t: thats what God wanted anyway, wasnt it? He created everything to give to Jesus, to have everyone serve Him?
iwillgonow: Yes.
jello13091: Yeah
iwillgonow: All things were created for Jesus's joy.
iwillgonow: The universe, the existing beings.
iwillgonow: Only in the throne has the Self-Existent One decided He shall be greater than Jesus.
06/01/01
iwillgonow: When Christ said to the tempter, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God," He repeated the words that, more than fourteen hundred years before, He had spoken to Israel: "The Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness. . . . So what did Jesus do when He quoted the Bible? That's right, He quoted Himself, cause He's the author and the speaker.
psycho314t: i remember thinking of the irony in that. satan tried using Jesus' own words to decieve Him
jello13091: huh, never thought of that before
iwillgonow: Think about it, remember who gave the Ten Commandments, who inspired the prophets/writers.
jello13091: yeah, i know
06/23/01
iwillgonow: God is called the "Great Physician."
jello13091: Are you supposed to pray and ask for that?
iwillgonow: I don't have the faith.
jello13091: I thought Jesus was called that
iwillgonow: Jesus is God.
jello13091: No.
iwillgonow: ?
jello13091: God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. Are the Father and the Son the same?
jello13091: One is created one is not.
iwillgonow: Has not the Father called His Son "God?"
jello13091: I don't know.
psycho314t: oh.. i'm still sick, and i'm leaving. this still confuses me, but i'm not aware enough to get it right now
iwillgonow: Moses was a "God" unto the people.
psycho314t: bbl
jello13091: a god. Not God
iwillgonow: Have you never read Hebrews, Julie?
jello13091: Yeah this confuses me too.
jello13091: You said everything that says God refers to Jesus. And then you said that Jesus and God are different and you gave me reasons for that.
jello13091: Parts of it.
iwillgonow: I guess that is your way of saying "No."
iwillgonow: We'll read Hebrews now.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:1: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:2: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
iwillgonow: What did that just say?
jello13091: God speaks by way of the prophets and in the last days, He speaks to us by His Son, who is the heir of all things and who made everything.
iwillgonow: God, whom in the past spoke to the Patriarchs by prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, and though whom He made the worlds.
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:3: Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
iwillgonow: What does that say?
jello13091: His Son, being the brightness of God's glory and the image of Him, and upholds everyhting of His power, sat down at the right hand of the Lord when He, by Himself, purged our sins.
iwillgonow: Jesus, who being the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of God's person, and upholding all things by the word of God's power, when Jesus had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty (God) on high;
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:4: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
iwillgonow: What does that say?
jello13091: Jacob, why am I explaining it and then have you explain it when you say almost the same thing as the quote says?
jello13091: Jesus, being made so much better than the angels, He (Jesus) hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
iwillgonow: Jesus being made so much better than the angels, as Jesus has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than the angels.
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:5: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
iwillgonow: What's that say?
jello13091: For unto which of the angels said God at any time, Jesus art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I (God) owill be to Him a Father, and He (Jesus) shall be to me a Son?
iwillgonow: For unto which of the angels said God at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I (God) will be to (an angel) a Father, and (an angel) shall be to me a Son?
iwillgonow: What's that say?
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:6: And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
jello13091: And again, when God brings Jesus into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.
iwillgonow: And again, when God brought Jesus into the world, God said, And let all the angels of mine worship Jesus.
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
iwillgonow: What's that say?
jello13091: I don't know
iwillgonow: And unto the angels God said that, God making His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
iwillgonow: What's that say?
jello13091: But unto Jesus God said, Thy throne Jesus is for ever and ever, a sceptre or righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
iwillgonow: BUT UNTO JESUS CHRIST, GOD THE FATHER SAITH THIS: THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND EVER: A SCEPTRE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS TEH SCEPTRE OF THY KINGDOM.
iwillgonow: God just called Jesus God.
jello13091: Ok, I see.
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:9: Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
iwillgonow: What's that say?
jello13091: Jesus has loved righteouness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows
iwillgonow: (God the Father still speaking): THOU, JESUS, HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED INIQUITY; THEREFORE GOD, EVEN THY GOD, HATH ANNOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY FELLOWS.
iwillgonow: Hebr:1:10: And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
iwillgonow: etc...
jello13091: Why did you Bold that?
jello13091: and make it big?
iwillgonow: God the Father said He is the God of the God Jesus.
iwillgonow: God the Father made Jesus a God.
iwillgonow: Our God.
jello13091: Therefore God, even Jesus's God, hath anointed....
jello13091: Then why did you spend some much time telling me that Jesus and God were different?
iwillgonow: They are.
iwillgonow: Use what you've been taught.
iwillgonow: Build upon knowledge.
jello13091: Ok.
iwillgonow: Jesus is not God the Father.
iwillgonow: Jesus was created.
iwillgonow: By God the Father.
iwillgonow: Jesus had a beginning.
iwillgonow: God did not.
jello13091: But....
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: God the Father made Jesus the God of the Universe.
iwillgonow: God the Father gave "all things into thine hand."
jello13091: How than is Jesus considered God?
iwillgonow: And as Joseph and Pharoah, so are Jesus and God the Father.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: Pharoah saying, and God the Father saying, "ONLY IN THE THRONE SHALL I BE GREATER THAN THEE."
iwillgonow: Jesus is our God.
jello13091: Ok.
iwillgonow: And our King.
jello13091: But in the throne of Heaven, God is God.
iwillgonow: God the Father has commanded it.
jello13091: And king.
iwillgonow: God the Father loves His Son so much, He gave Him all power and dominion.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: He created the Universe, though Jesus, for the joy of Jesus.
iwillgonow: And made Jesus God of all Creation.
jello13091: Yeah
iwillgonow: Equal to His Father in all power and glory, except in the throne.
iwillgonow: God will forever be the only one who can give life force.
jello13091: Ok.
iwillgonow: Who can sustain and create.
iwillgonow: But this power He gives to Jesus.
iwillgonow: God the Father is the origin of love and life.
iwillgonow: Which flow continually from His being.
iwillgonow: And without God the Father, Jesus would cease to be.
iwillgonow: As would everything.
iwillgonow: Therefore Jesus can never be the Uncreated One; they are two different beings.
iwillgonow: But God has the perrogative to make His Son the ruler of the Universe, and He has.
iwillgonow: The greatest joy God the Father gets is not out of creating for Himself, but for others.
iwillgonow: So He made all, for Jesus.
iwillgonow: Not for Himself.
jello13091: I know
iwillgonow: And Jesus was "daily God's delight, rejoicing always before Him."
iwillgonow: From before time began.
iwillgonow: Jesus is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
iwillgonow: Of what?
iwillgonow: OF what?
jello13091: Of everything
iwillgonow: No.
jello13091: The world.
iwillgonow: No.
iwillgonow: What could Jesus possibly be the first and the last of? What has only happened one time, and will never happen again?
iwillgonow: A creation directly by God the Father.
iwillgonow: Jesus is the first and only...the last.
iwillgonow: All things after Jesus were made by Jesus, through God's power.
iwillgonow: But only Jesus was made by God the Father.
jello13091: Ok
iwillgonow: What do you mean "Ok?"
jello13091: Ok, I see that Jesus was made by God and then Jesus made everything else.
jello13091: Through th epower of God.
iwillgonow: Is it wrong to worsihp Jesus?
iwillgonow: To call Him God?
jello13091: No, because God called Him God.
iwillgonow: Isn't that...breaking the first commandment?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: How come?
jello13091: I saw this somewhere or you told me before.
jello13091: God called Jesus God.
jello13091: Doesn't it mean something like no other physical gods?
iwillgonow: I don't remember the word "physical" in the first commandment.
jello13091: It isn't but I remember that from somewhere.
jello13091: it isn't breaking the first commandment cause if it was, than God would be breaking that commandment also and that wouldn't make any sense.
iwillgonow: Is God not a jealous God?
iwillgonow: Which God?
jello13091: God says He is a jealous God
iwillgonow: Exod:20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
iwillgonow: Exod:34:14: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
iwillgonow: Deut:4:24: For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.
iwillgonow: Deut:6:15: (For the LORD thy God [is] a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
iwillgonow: Josh:24:19: And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
iwillgonow: God is jealous, so then may you worship Jesus and not God the Father?
iwillgonow: Or who is jealous?
iwillgonow: I'm confused!
jello13091: well so am I so I guess we're both stuck.
iwillgonow: Where is your strength in the Bible? Have you no solid ground ot stand firm upon, and by it test doctrines and prove that which is true?
iwillgonow: Or are you like a house built on sand, that falls with the slightest tide?
jello13091: I don;t fall. The Bible doesn't lie or contradict. it isn't wrong to call Jesus God because God called HIm that.
jello13091: And if it was wrong then God would be wrong. and God isn't.
iwillgonow: Is it in the nature of God the Father or Jesus, to be JEALOUS of each other?
iwillgonow: Does one covet the other?
iwillgonow: How can we say God sins?
iwillgonow: We must not.
jello13091: No, they are not jealous of eachother....
iwillgonow: So then what for the jealousy?
iwillgonow: False gods.
iwillgonow: Not each other.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: Jesus and God the Father are family.
jello13091: Father and Son
iwillgonow: Jesus always, always, always gave and gives all glory to His Father.
jello13091: I know
iwillgonow: God the Father is so giving that He gives all power and glory and dominion to His Son.
iwillgonow: So they both can't hardly give enough to each other, and never think once of themselves.
iwillgonow: This is perfection.
iwillgonow: Pray as Jesus taught you, to God the Father.
iwillgonow: God the Father commands you to worship His Son.
iwillgonow: Do both!
iwillgonow: And there is no sin.
iwillgonow: The both prefer the other above themselves.
jello13091: Yeah
iwillgonow: Perfection, no greed, no jealousy, no envy, no selfishness.
iwillgonow: I pray to God the Father as my God commanded me.
jello13091: through His Son Jesus
iwillgonow: I worship Jesus as the Ultimate Being commanded me.
iwillgonow: They are not mad when you give glory to one or the other. They are so unselfish that they both defer it to the one you didn't give it to!
iwillgonow: Praise Jesus and He'll say give it to God the Father.
iwillgonow: Praise God the Father and He'll say worship your Savior.
jello13091: ANd vice versa
iwillgonow: And it's all good.
iwillgonow: All in the family.
iwillgonow: The angels sing songs to God, with Jesus, then they turn around and praise Jesus!
jello13091: Yep
iwillgonow: And there is no selfishness.
iwillgonow: God will always be greater than Jesus, but only in the Throne.
iwillgonow: In all other things God has chosen to be equal to His Son.
iwillgonow: To be the greatest being and choose to be equal to a creation you've created is unfathomable unselfishness and lvoe.
iwillgonow: Who would do it?
jello13091: God
iwillgonow: Who would give all power and glory and honor and praise and dominion to a lesser being?
iwillgonow: And the image of Jesus so closely to God's, that He defers all glory and power and dominion and honor and praise right back to His Father, instead of coveting it.
jello13091: Yeah
iwillgonow: Perfection is to desire nothing, no gains for yourself, and because of that to have all things added unto you.
iwillgonow: Not to desire all things, because that leads to having nothing.
iwillgonow: Jesus still, STILL defers all to His Father, and because of this attitude God gives Jesus all He has, and more to come.
iwillgonow: If Jesus wanted more, He would have less.
iwillgonow: Interesting.
iwillgonow: Reverse.
jello13091: If you want less, you get more.
07/28/01
psycho314t: i found something in egw that seems to be contradicting other things we've read in her writings...
psycho314t: u remember reading about Jesus being the only communication w/ earth, right?
iwillgonow: The Mediator, yes.
psycho314t: Gods inability to be around sin, and sinful mans inability to be in the presence of God?
iwillgonow: Yes.
psycho314t: With the Father at Sinai.--When they [Israel] came to Sinai, He took occasion to refresh their minds in regard to His requirements. Christ and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments.--Historical Sketches, p. 231. (1866) {Ev 616.3}
iwillgonow: This I did not know she wrote.
iwillgonow: But it doesn't contradict anything.
iwillgonow: NONE were "in the presence of God" when He gave the commandments from the mount.
iwillgonow: Even Moses was on the ground behind the fence.
iwillgonow: They were a very safe distance away.
iwillgonow: And a massive cloud covered God's glory, so as to not instantly destroy the people below with His consuming presence.
psycho314t: somewhere else she says... "Since the sin of our first parents, there has been no direct communication between God and man."
iwillgonow: God told Jesus "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased."
psycho314t: so that isnt contradicted either..?
iwillgonow: Jesus was a man.
iwillgonow: Jennifer, there's no contradiction.
psycho314t: hm. hadnt thought of that
iwillgonow: Jesus has been the conduit of communication since the fall.
psycho314t: yeah, that i knew
iwillgonow: But Jesus only does the will of His Father.
iwillgonow: So who speaks?
iwillgonow: Jesus and God are "one."
iwillgonow: In purpose they are identical.
psycho314t: yeah...
iwillgonow: God, before the fall, would communicate directly with Adam and Eve.
iwillgonow: They could behold Him.
psycho314t: yup..
iwillgonow: And speak to Him.
iwillgonow: That has not happened since.
iwillgonow: Moses beheld the passing glory of Jesus.
iwillgonow: On the Mt.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: I see on TBN,
iwillgonow: people are acknowledging the knowledge,
iwillgonow: that I've had for years.
iwillgonow: Pagan Christians,
iwillgonow: all over the world in all sorts of religions,
iwillgonow: are saying and preaching on tv,
iwillgonow: that Jesus was the Old Testament God.
iwillgonow: They're getting it.
iwillgonow: Seeing how it fits in.
iwillgonow: Makes sense.
iwillgonow: Has to be that way.
iwillgonow: And that's interesting to me.
iwillgonow: Perhaps they wonder how they ever could have thought that GOD was the OT God, but then how did Moses behold Him?
iwillgonow: Is that not against the Bible?
iwillgonow: So it's almost funny to see and hear about "Christians,"
iwillgonow: who are so solid in what they believe cause it cannot possibly have any errors in it,
iwillgonow: after all their life,
iwillgonow: yet boom
iwillgonow: they change their entire view of the OT.
iwillgonow: World wide.
iwillgonow: But if you say Sabbath,
iwillgonow: OH NO,
iwillgonow: they cannot be wrong there too!
iwillgonow: They forget how wrong about the OT they were so soon...
