law, grace, and perfection: how they all fit together

04/07/01

iwillgonow: So the point of the Lord's supper is...?
psycho314t: point of the Lords supper is to... lets see.. to seal the fact that Jesus' death was to take away their sin..? i'm not really sure...
iwillgonow: Yeah sorta. It is to remember His death, and it's point.
iwillgonow: And that He'll come back, of course.
psycho314t: ok.. i remembered reading in one of the accounts of it that it was 'sealing the new covenant', i just wasnt totally sure what that covenant was..
iwillgonow: Yes, it established the New Testament.
iwillgonow: Though the Old is not "nailed to the Cross."
iwillgonow: God's word, Old and New Testament, is unchanging, and forever.
iwillgonow: Only what was FULFILLED by Jesus was ended, because it's purpose was served and completed.
psycho314t: yeah... makes sense..

iwillgonow: The Messiah came to magnify -- expand to the full spiritual intent and purpose -- the law. He said that even to lust after another woman is the same as committing adultery.

06/09/01

psycho314t: ah.. i just found something else that is prolly used to say we're not under the law anymore
iwillgonow: lemmesee
psycho314t: Gala:3:19: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gala:3:20: Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gala:3:21: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
psycho314t: Gala:3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gala:3:23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gala:3:24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gala:3:25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
psycho314t: law = sacrificial system?
iwillgonow: Might be.
psycho314t: Gala:3:21: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
iwillgonow: But when it says "after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster," that means something to the same effect as "when Christ is in you, ye sin not."
psycho314t: 3:21 soundlike sacrifices
psycho314t: sounds like*
psycho314t: not sure i get what you mean
iwillgonow: And in that sense I just described, we are not "under the law," since we don't come under its condemnation by sinning.
psycho314t: the faith v. works thing..
iwillgonow: The law was a schoolmaster to represent, in many things, Jesus. When Jesus came, the schoolmaster aspect of it was come to an end, since what it represented was come, though that would be the ONLY way it came to an end or fulfillment, because Jesus did not come to destroy, but to fulfill, and He spoke nothing against the law, nor annulled or made void any thing, but made the law come in its spiritual light, which is greater than the carnal, do-this-do-that-without-understanding-what-it-symbolizes.
psycho314t: so the schoolmaster thing is like vain, empty instructions, which is made void by faith and understanding?
iwillgonow: We know the law is in effect because as long as there is sin there must be a LAW to define it. We still have sin, so we still have something to define what sin is in order to have sin.
iwillgonow: If we had no law, how could we know we were sinning? Sin is a transgression of the law.
psycho314t: if there was no law to define it, it wouldnt be fair..
iwillgonow: If you sin not, you are not under the condemnation of the law, which is how those who are perfect will be.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Not an easy subject, but follow Jesus, He's the example, and He did not one thing against the law or contrary to the Prophets, but spoke according to these.
iwillgonow: And the apostles kept the laws and the feasts after Jesus was gone, showing there was no change by His death that made the rules like "do not kill" of no effect.
psycho314t: yup...
iwillgonow: We keep everything in the Bible, EVERYTHING that has not come to fulfillment. All the Bible from front to back, Ten Commandments to healing on the Sabbath, and the only thing that has clearly been shown to have come to fulfillment in every possible way is the earthly animal sacrificial system, which showed the results of sin and its dire effects, and promised to a coming Savior.
psycho314t: and passover, right?
iwillgonow: Uh, that too.
psycho314t:

iwillgonow: Kinda the same thing, related, closely, you know.
psycho314t: yeah, still a symbol pointing towards Christ
iwillgonow: Killing animals and asking for forgiveness by our act would be blasphemy, knowing the true import of the meaning of what those animals and that act stood for.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Unless you believe in witchcraft, that animals' blood has some sort of supernatural power that cleanses the soul.
iwillgonow: Faith in the blood of Christ for the remission of sins that are past, Romans 3:25, does not void the laws of God, including that of the second tithe. It establishes the law, Romans 3:31, makes it much more binding, to its full spiritual intent.

06/30/01

iwillgonow: Some have used this next verse as "evidence" that we, believers, don’t have to keep God’s Law. GALATIANS 5:18; "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
iwillgonow: What happened to all the other Scriptures that clearly stated the opposite? They're still there! What Paul was saying was that if you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the penalty of the law-your sins have been forgiven, and the Spirit guides you in keeping God's Law.
iwillgonow: Look at this next verse: ROMANS 8:7; "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
iwillgonow: Does this mean the carnal mind is also not under any obligation to keep God's Law? Another definition of the Greek word "hupotasso," here translated "subject," is "obedient."
iwillgonow: " Now, let’s look at this verse again-"The carnal mind" is not obedient "to the law," neither can it be. Why? Because without Christ, it is impossible to keep the Law.
jello13091: The mind is not obedient
jello13091: I remember reading that last night.
iwillgonow: More proof Jennifer that we are still, even after Jesus, required to do ALL the LAW and the COMMANDMENTS.
iwillgonow: With the literal meaning from the word that was translated as "subject" helping to clarify.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Except of course the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us," which is slaughter of animals to typify Jesus' sacrifice.
iwillgonow: People may ask, "What's the purpose in all this plan of salvation if we still can't keep the Law?" Well, we can keep the Law-but not by our own power. Christ showed us how.
iwillgonow: Remember all the times that Christ would go away alone to pray? Remember the agony of Spirit He had as He prayed? He was just as we are when He was on earth-He felt every temptation that all men feel.
iwillgonow: People want to say He didn't sin because He was God and therefore perfect. But that's not what the Bible says.
iwillgonow: It says He came in the flesh-and flesh is not God. Flesh is human. He is God but He took on the form of man, which included man's inherited nature: HEBREWS 4:15; "For we have not an high priest witch cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
iwillgonow: Had He come to earth as God, not as man, it would have proved nothing-people would say He was able to live without sin because He was God.
iwillgonow: Don't you get it yet?
iwillgonow: It would of been unfair!
iwillgonow: It would of been worthy of nothing.
iwillgonow: Proved nothing.
jello13091: YES!!! WE GET IT!!!!!
psycho314t: of course we get it... we got that part a long time ago
iwillgonow: We have all sinned. We will all sin again, most likely. But if we continuously ask forgiveness for those sins with repentance and a true desire to keep His Law, He will forgive us and continue to rehabilitate us. And then, when our time is "up," when the Father looks at us, He sees not our sins, for they have been actually removed from our record and the righteousness of His Son covers us.
iwillgonow: We have all heard of sin spoken of as being "hereditary"-and it is. The Bible is clear on this point-man is sinful by nature. It's in our very genes. Look at how modern science is proving that certain traits, such as aggression, are actually inherited. Christ and the apostles many times tried to explain to men that their very fleshly nature was sinful:
iwillgonow: EPHESIANS 2:2; "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
iwillgonow: Ha ha!
iwillgonow: If God's Law had been done away with, there would be no such thing as sin: 1 JOHN 3:4; "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
iwillgonow: No law means nothing can break the law cause there is no law to break, so sin would be... ok, it wouldn't be sin!
iwillgonow: No wonder these people think they cannot sin, because that's just perfectly logical to think, if you think that the law is gone.
iwillgonow: No law, no way to judge sin or determine it.
jello13091: Brb
jello13091: back
psycho314t: wb
iwillgonow: So how would it be today if Israel began to reinstitute the earthly sacrificial system, to God?
psycho314t: an abomination
iwillgonow: ISAIAH 66:3; "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations."
jello13091: huh I didn't make the connection there with that verse
iwillgonow: It would be utterly disgusting to God.
iwillgonow: Like swine's blood and idol worship.

07/14/01

iwillgonow: Ha ha!
iwillgonow: HAW HAW HAW.
iwillgonow: I got a good one for you two.
jello13091: great
iwillgonow: This will take you awhile to explain to me, haw ha hahaaa.
iwillgonow: Pretend I'm stating this verse in defense of myself.
iwillgonow: As justification and substatiation of my belief, which is:
iwillgonow: I cannot sin, cause I'm not under the OLD law.
iwillgonow: Haw haw haw...
iwillgonow: Roma:6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
iwillgonow: I'm under grace.
iwillgonow: I love it. Prove me wrong.
jello13091: Jacob, hush
iwillgonow: GREAT test for you.
iwillgonow: Ok, I be quiet now.
psycho314t: yes, shhh
iwillgonow: I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaitiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing.
jello13091: Keep waiting then...
psycho314t: ooh.. you thought u were being so smart with that verse, didnt u?
psycho314t: Roma:6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Roma:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
psycho314t: Roma:3:9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Roma:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

psycho314t: Roma:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Roma:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Roma:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
iwillgonow: But no, I'm free from sin! I'M FREE! FREE! FREE AT LAST! JESUS MADE ME FREE!
iwillgonow: Roma:6:18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
psycho314t: 1John:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
jello13091: To sin is to transgress the law. Are you then saying that there is no law since there is no sin?
iwillgonow: And... I'm no longer under the law, remember?
iwillgonow: Roma:7:4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
jello13091: Yet there is law because Jesus did not abolish all the law.
iwillgonow: But Jesus made me dead to the law! Glory Glory!
psycho314t: Math:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Math:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Math:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
iwillgonow: Did I mention I'm free from the law?
iwillgonow: Roma:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Roma:8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
iwillgonow: You guys are not convincing me.
iwillgonow: I can't sin!
iwillgonow: Hoorray!
iwillgonow: Nobody can simply prove this belief wrong!
jello13091: You're under the law. Jesus was under the law. Everyone is under the law. When Jesus died He ended the sacrificial system and it's laws but not laws on murdering and committing adultery
iwillgonow: I'm sorry, but that wouldn't be an acceptable or substantiated answer.
jello13091: So what is the acceptable answer since we don't know/
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: You do know how to answer the statement I gave you.
psycho314t: Roma:6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
iwillgonow: This is like taking a test in school.
iwillgonow: You test over the subject material YOU'VE ALREADY COVERED.
iwillgonow: You can still fail, but you have the ability to pass.
jello13091: SO THEN TEACH US.
psycho314t: Roma:6:11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Roma:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
jello13091: if we don't kjnow enopugh
iwillgonow: You have been taught, and this test is to see if you will pass.
psycho314t: sin shall not have dominion over you... because you shouldnt let it reign in you
jello13091: I
jello13091: 'm sure i have this written down
jello13091: becuase i knew this would happen
iwillgonow: Jennifer's answer is good, but she didn't explain it to as if I was an ignorant man, believing what my church told me.
iwillgonow: Addressing my belief and proof, then stating her answer and explaining it.
iwillgonow: Jennifer, think simply and explain your text selection.
iwillgonow: WHY would Paul say "let sin not reign" if you were DEAD to sin, meaning you COULDN'T SIN?
iwillgonow: Comon, yall do something on your own.
iwillgonow: I don't have to explain every thing, JULIE.
jello13091: Becuase if we couldn't sin, we wouldnt be human
jello13091: What would we be waiting for here on earth?
jello13091: Purification to get into Heaven?
jello13091: No possible if you were already pure
iwillgonow: Jennifer speaks next.
iwillgonow: We wait.
psycho314t: hang on
jello13091: Brb
psycho314t: ok, point number one... you believe you arent under the law, but there was more than one law
psycho314t: psycho314t: Math:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Math:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Math:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
psycho314t: Jesus did not destroy God's law... He spent His ministry reaffirming the ten commandments, and others
psycho314t: because they are Gods perfect law
psycho314t: those are the laws that keep us healthy, safe, etc
psycho314t: they help us grow spiritually
psycho314t: and in character
psycho314t: etc
psycho314t: Colo:2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
psycho314t: the only laws that were against us, against God's character, were the sacrificial laws... why would God wants us to keep killing animals uneccessarily, His Son had already made the ultimate sacrifice... that law was therefore no longer needed, it was fulfilled with the crucifixion, and done away with
psycho314t: brb
jello13091: Are we making this harder than it is?
iwillgonow: Making what?
jello13091: This issue and the explanation of how you're wrong/
jello13091: Thatg we are still under the law
iwillgonow: You just need to answer it like.. I would. You have examples abundant of how I assess a question and it's support, give a counter support or/and just plain old talk common sense and logic to shoot it down since it's so blatently contrary to reason.
psycho314t: back
psycho314t: so what arguments do you have with the explanation i gave so far?
iwillgonow: Your explanation was that the "law" spoken of was the cardinal law of sacrifices. I said no it wasn't, it's the law of sin, and I'm free from sin just like it says in the verse.
psycho314t: ? i didnt see that
psycho314t: ok.. hmm
jello13091: illgonow: I'm not under the law of sin, I dunno what you're talking about, but I'm not under the law of sin because I'm under God's free grace.
iwillgonow: I'm free!
jello13091: That's what he said
jello13091: John:1:17: For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
jello13091: Roma:4:16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
jello13091: Is that saying you gotta also have the faith with grace?
jello13091: Roma:6:1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Roma:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
psycho314t: Ephe:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
jello13091: Maybe I got it.
psycho314t: you have to have the faith that God would give His grace freely to sinners, before you can accept the gift
psycho314t: yeah, ive been looking at romans 6:1-2.. trying to figure out how to use it
jello13091: If you can't sin, then how are you alive? People sin, we are not perfect. if you believe that you are not under the law, you are still sinning. You cannot live if you are perfect cause why would you be living, like we said before?
jello13091: Therefore you would know that you have sin because earth is the place to change your character into one suitable for Heaven.
psycho314t: ok, also... not under the law means being not under the penalty of the law.. Jesus pays the price for you... He offers His blood to get rid of your sin only when you admit that you committed the sin...
jello13091: So if you know you sin, by what was just said, then you know that you must be under the law also, or else you would have no sin and would not be here on earth
jello13091: Roma:6:7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
jello13091: You would have to be dead to be free from sin.
iwillgonow: Well Julie, you have to get perfect on this earth in order to go to Heaven.
jello13091: And free from the law of sin
jello13091: I know, you're perfect when you ask and get forgiveness. But we sin
psycho314t: perfect means having no sin on your record.. and the only way to get the sin OFF your record is to ask for forgiveness, admitting that its there to begin with
jello13091: When and for how long are people perfect on earth? They ask forgiveness, get it. And 5 minutes later they commit another sin. Does the cycle keep going?
psycho314t: as long as they are truly repentant, i think...
psycho314t: but the more you have the Holy Spirit in you, the longer the time goes between sins..
iwillgonow: If your record is clean you're sinless, you're perfect.
psycho314t: yes.. until you sin again
iwillgonow: If you commit a sin, does it not get put on record in Heaven?
iwillgonow: So that answers that question.
iwillgonow: Moses, you two.
iwillgonow: Moses went decades.
iwillgonow: DECADES.
iwillgonow: Without sinning.
iwillgonow: But just once he faltered.
iwillgonow: And payed for it.
jello13091: But he wasn't perfect. Jacob, you told me that no one was ever perfect except for Jesus.
iwillgonow: By not being allowed to go into Cannan.
iwillgonow: Julie, this is the result of your not paying attention!
jello13091: But now we are/can be perfect.....Moses was perfect
psycho314t: brb
iwillgonow: Jesus was the only one that never committed a sin, so of course He was the only "perfect" one in that sense!
jello13091: OK!
iwillgonow: BUT IF YOU HAVE NO SIN ON YOUR RECORD, ARE YOU NOT PERFECT? IS IT A SIN TO HAVE NO SIN ON YOUR RECORD?!?!?!?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Just like that, you can hear me say that Moses was equal to Jesus...unbelievable.
jello13091: I know that moses was NOT equal to Jesus.
psycho314t: back
iwillgonow: You heard me say that Moses was perfect, and that made you go mad thinking I said only Jesus was perfect, AFTER ALL THE CLARIFICATION I'VE ALREADY GIVEN ON THAT SUBJECT?
jello13091: I just said Moses wasn't perfect.
iwillgonow: Back to what I was saying, Moses went more than 30 years without committing a sin.
iwillgonow: Because why else would it be so greivous for him to falter that one time, unless he was such a great example from that point backward?
iwillgonow: Those who go to Heaven will have no sin on their record.
iwillgonow: And for how long, I don't know.
psycho314t: and we know that moses went to heaven, from jude
iwillgonow: Some for years.
iwillgonow: Some for seconds.
iwillgonow: Like the thief on the cross, some only hours before they die.
iwillgonow: Or like Moses, for years they have been a titan of an example for God.
iwillgonow: Both will receive their reward.
jello13091: Ephe:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
jello13091: by grace we are saved from DEATH
iwillgonow: Whoa.
jello13091: By grace we are not saved from sin, but from death
jello13091: Possibly?
iwillgonow: Ephe:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
jello13091: Grace is a gift. many times in the Bible, is says God revealed the gift of grace or they waited for it from God.
iwillgonow: Julie, do you know what grace is?
jello13091: Yes
jello13091: 091: By grace we are not saved from sin, but from death
jello13091: Is that completely wrong?
iwillgonow: Grace is God's favour or/and mercy.
jello13091: Please answer my question.
jello13091: I know what grace is.
iwillgonow: What is the difference between death and sin?
psycho314t: death is the price of sin
jello13091: After you sin, you can ask forgiveness and live. After you die, you're dead. There is nothing more
jello13091: The wages of sin is death
jello13091: But if you are forgiven you don't have that sin.
iwillgonow: What would you think if grace saved you from death, but not from sin? How is that POSSIBLE, JULIE?
jello13091: That's why I was asking if it was wrong, because I knew the wages of sin was death.
jello13091: You can be forgiven of your sins
psycho314t: wait.. no, i think i agree w/ her.. grace cant save u from sin, cuz sin isnt a price.. sin is an action, but grace saves us from having to die for those sins...
psycho314t: Gods grace let Jesus die the death that we should have died for our sins
iwillgonow: So let's say grace saves you from death, but not from sin. Would you like to have God's grace and live, but still have sin on your record? What good does it do to live with sin?
jello13091: Is mercy the same as forgiveness?
jello13091: Graces saves you from death, forgiveness saves you from the sin after it is comitted.
iwillgonow: Grace is the forgiveness of sins, so that no man may boast and say by any work they saved themselves.
psycho314t: ack.. ok.. grace allows you to be forgiven for the sins you commit.. and being forgiven, we're therefore saved from death.. is that better?
iwillgonow: Which death?
jello13091: death death
jello13091: How many types of death are there?!
psycho314t: the penalty for our sins
iwillgonow: Those forgiven of their sins have died.
iwillgonow: We are not immortal.
jello13091: Wait, if you're forgiven of your sins, you're dead?
jello13091: Or you have been dead?
jello13091: I don't get that.
psycho314t: i thought death was the effect of sin on mankind or something
jello13091: Joe Blow was forgiven of his sins, but he's still alive.
jello13091: (fictional)
jello13091: illgonow: Those forgiven of their sins have died. --> Please explain this
psycho314t: he was arguing with what i said, that forgiveness saves us from death
psycho314t: ppl get forgiveness from their sins, but they all die
jello13091: yeah
jello13091: ok, i was taking it into another context.
jello13091: Paul had ever exalted the divine law. He had shown that in the law there is no power to save men from the penalty of disobedience. Wrongdoers must repent of their sins and humble themselves before God, whose just wrath they have incurred by breaking His law, and they must also exercise faith in the blood of Christ as their only means of pardon. The Son of God had died as their sacrifice and had ascended to heaven to stand before the Father as their advocate. By repentance and faith they might be freed from the condemnation of sin and through the grace of Christ be enabled henceforth to render obedience to the law of God. {AA 393.1}
psycho314t: "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}
In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave.
jello13091: Ohhhhhhhh
psycho314t: did jacob see the 2 things we just pasted?
jello13091: Don;t know
iwillgonow: iwillgonow: It is appointed unto men to die once.
iwillgonow: I ended there.
jello13091: I didn't get that
iwillgonow: o314t: the penalty for our sins

: iwillgonow: Those forgiven of their sins have died.; iwillgonow: We are not immortal.; iwillgonow: Those who die without sin on their record are saved from the second death.; iwillgonow: It is appointed unto men to die once.; psycho314t: did jacob see the 2 things we just pasted?; jello13091: Don;t know

iwillgonow: So show me what you pasted already.
jello13091: weird, i didn't see the "thos who die"
psycho314t: willgonow: We are not immortal.

: jello13091: Wait, if you're forgiven of your sins, you're dead?; jello13091: Or you have been dead?; jello13091: I don't get that.; psycho314t: i thought death was the effect of sin on mankind or something; jello13091: Joe Blow was forgiven of his sins, but he's still alive.; jello13091: (fictional); jello13091: illgonow: Those forgiven of their sins have died. --> Please explain this; psycho314t: he was arguing with what i said, that forgiveness saves us from death; psycho314t: ppl get forgiveness from their sins, but they all die; jello13091: yeah

psycho314t: ello13091: ok, i was taking it into another context.

: jello13091: Paul had ever exalted the divine law. He had shown that in the law there is no power to save men from the penalty of disobedience. Wrongdoers must repent of their sins and humble themselves before God, whose just wrath they have incurred by breaking His law, and they must also exercise faith in the blood of Christ as their only means of pardon. The Son of God had died as their sacrifice and had ascended to heaven to stand before the Father as their advocate. By repentance and faith they might be freed from the condemnation of sin and through the grace of Christ be enabled henceforth to render obedience to the law of God. {AA 393.1}; psycho314t: "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus
psycho314t: Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}
In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave.
jello13091: Ohhhhhhhh

jello13091: Christ knew that no one could obey the law in his own strength. He desired to lead the lawyer to clearer and more critical research that he might find the truth. Only by accepting the virtue and grace of Christ can we keep the law. Belief in the propitiation for sin enables fallen man to love God with his whole heart and his neighbor as himself. {COL 378.1}
iwillgonow: Any other questions?
jello13091: The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good. {COL 391.2}
psycho314t: another support i was trying to formulate earlier.. your argument was that grace took the place of the law, instead of just freeing you from the penalty of the law, right? but how would that make sense? grace lets your sins be forgiven, and sins are transgressions of the law... which means there still has to be a law.. or grace wouldnt have any effect...
psycho314t: did that make sense>
psycho314t: ?
iwillgonow: Exactly.
iwillgonow: Now THAT's thinking.
iwillgonow: Where is grace if there is no law to be excused from?
psycho314t: i couldnt get that thought to sound reasonable tho
psycho314t: ive been trying to do that for hours : \
jello13091: Brb
iwillgonow: You need no grace, if there is no law.
iwillgonow: Simple.
iwillgonow: As.
iwillgonow: That.

06/03/01

iwillgonow: Math:5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
iwillgonow: How does that say to be, Julie?
jello13091: i know we are supposed to be perfect, but what other men are perfect or have been?
jello13091: be perfect but are we?
iwillgonow: MMMMM, THOUSANDS?
iwillgonow: Listen to me, you two.
jello13091: 144,000
iwillgonow: I already told you guys this.
jello13091: they will be perfect
iwillgonow: Are you listening?
jello13091: yes!
iwillgonow: Can anyone........can ANYONE, get into Heaven, with SIN on their record?
psycho314t: no
jello13091: oh wait, thats right
jello13091: after repentence, one becomes perfect again
iwillgonow: IF YOU HAVE NO SIN, YOU ARE..................................
psycho314t: we're given a perfect slate after we ask for forgiveness.. ya
jello13091: oop
jello13091: s
iwillgonow: I CAN BARELY BELIEVE YOU'VE FORGOTTEN SOMETHING SO HORRIBLY IMPORTANT.
jello13091: I didn;t forget, i just needed something to trigger that in my memory

07/14/01

psycho314t: 1John:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
psycho314t: that can't mean what it seems to mean.. so..?
iwillgonow: That is the verse used by the people who say they CANNOT, actuallly CANNOT committ sin to excuse what they do, which is blatently obvious transgression of God's irrefutable, unchangable laws.
iwillgonow: Someone who really, REALLY, ACTUALLY, TRUELY had God's spirit in them wouldn't committ sin because of what the verse says, but that doesn't mean doing sinful acts and having it not be sin, that means NOT COMMITTING AN ACT THAT IS A VIOLATION OF THE BIBLE AND ITS LAWS, RULES, STANDARDS, ETC.
iwillgonow: Which is DIFFERENT from DOING SINFUL ACTS and saying you're not sinning cause you just can't.

Yahoo! Messenger: jello13091 has joined the conference.
iwillgonow: Alright, Jennifer has a question about a verse commonly used to justify those who would continue to sin and believe that they are not held accountable for their sinful acts, thoughts, choices, words, whatever.
iwillgonow: Post the verse, Jennifer.
psycho314t: 1John:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
iwillgonow: To be "born of God," is to be born again.
iwillgonow: Now perhaps both of you have heard people say they're "born again," or "saved" Chrisitans.
psycho314t: oh.. ok.
psycho314t: yeah
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: These, if they do as the Bible commands, are called saints.
iwillgonow: Called.
iwillgonow: Chosen.
iwillgonow: Etc.
iwillgonow: Paul wrote to the saints at somewhere and said "I write to ye that ye sin not, BUT IF YE SIN, WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER WHO IS JESUS CHRIST."
iwillgonow: Now tell me what that means?
jello13091: If you sin, there is one who can mediate for you and forgive you.
psycho314t: generally, they dont commit sins.. but when they do.. yeah, she beat me to it
iwillgonow: WHY would Paul say that if they COULD NOT SIN
iwillgonow: WHY do we need JESUS if we CANNOT SIN?
psycho314t: we don't
iwillgonow: Post the verse again.
psycho314t: if we couldn't sin, He wouldnt have anything to mediate for... 1John:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
iwillgonow: Obviously, we see that if SAINTS OF GOD can falter and sin, then who else could be born of God but them, the unrepentent sinners???
iwillgonow: Of course not.
iwillgonow: Unrepentent sinners are not born of God.
iwillgonow: They are of their father the devil.
psycho314t: right
iwillgonow: There is MORE than substantial proof, over the course of our studies on it, that Jesus was NOT a GOD-MAN or demi-GOD or GOD, but a male human being.
psycho314t: wb
iwillgonow: ALL MALE HUMAN BEINGS AFTER ADAM'S FALL COULD SIN.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Same for any human being.
iwillgonow: There has not been a man that could not sin.
iwillgonow: Why would he be here?
iwillgonow: This world is for refinement of the character to become suitable for Heaven.
iwillgonow: HE WOULD BE READY BEFORE HE WAS.
iwillgonow: So that's pointless to be here and not be able to sin.
iwillgonow: Cause you'd be ready to go to Heaven anyway.
psycho314t: makes sense
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: Jesus came to be the example.
iwillgonow: Jesus came to prove the the universe that God's laws are keep-able.
iwillgonow: And Jesus came to pay the price for our souls.
iwillgonow: Otherwise the penalty would rest on our own heads, with no hope of defferment.
iwillgonow: We also know Jesus could sin, otherwise we're calling Satan, the most exalted, superior, smartest, most gifted creature in existence next to Jesus before his fall, AN ABSOLUTE IDIOT.
iwillgonow: To try and tempt the untemptable to sin; WHAT A WASTE OF TIME.
iwillgonow: WHY
iwillgonow: TELL ME WHY JESUS STRUGGLED?????????
iwillgonow: WHY WOULD THE UNABLE TO FALL STRUGGLE WITH SIN?
iwillgonow: Why would it be...................................hard?
psycho314t: because He was able... door, brb
iwillgonow: Comon people!
iwillgonow: Why would it be hard to fight sin if you had no possibility of giving in???
iwillgonow: REMEMBER that Satan's arguement before his final decision to fall, which he used to pursuade 1/3 of the angels to come with him, was that God was NOT FAIR. His laws were NOT FAIR, they took away "TRUE" freedom.

iwillgonow: So I'm no angel.
iwillgonow: I'm not that smart.
iwillgonow: Or gifted.
iwillgonow: But I can tell you one thing:
iwillgonow: EVEN I know that if Jesus couldn't of sinned, how would He be comparable to me???
iwillgonow: How would He be my example?
iwillgonow: Shoot.
iwillgonow: Like comparing God to man.
jello13091: Yeah
iwillgonow: Impossible, I can't do what God can.
iwillgonow: Get it?
jello13091: yes
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Jesus was "tempted in every way that we are."
jello13091: Or else it would not have been fair
iwillgonow: We know a fact, people.
iwillgonow: Hello, we know a fact, Biblical fact.
iwillgonow: WE HAVE TO BUILD ON FACTS.
iwillgonow: We can't increase our understanding when we deny the facts.
iwillgonow: We know that Jesus was a man.
iwillgonow: A real, physical, man.
jello13091: We aren't denying that!
iwillgonow: If we know He was a man............
iwillgonow: Then we need to build on that fact.
jello13091: We know He had the ability to sin.
iwillgonow: .............exactly.
iwillgonow: If anything we read says anything contrary to the FACT that Jesus is a man, then we can immediately discount it.
iwillgonow: Because how long can you deny and controvert and question something you've solidified for months?
iwillgonow: Before you are weak in faith?
iwillgonow: The time comes to believe it.
iwillgonow: Speak, somebody say something. Who's got the idea that Jesus was a man or we are lost?
psycho314t: we know He was a man
iwillgonow: So what is the question, if we know that fact?
iwillgonow: Is there a question?
psycho314t: no... you answered the question a long time ago
jello13091: What question? I had no question.
psycho314t: i asked him a question about it last night/this morning
jello13091: ah
psycho314t: but when he said born of God is talking about born again, i said "OK"... cuz that answered my question... yet he didnt stop explaining : P
iwillgonow: Do you understand the question and the answer, Julie?
jello13091: yes
iwillgonow: Then state them both, and explain fully.
jello13091: Well I don't have the quote since the screen closed. Please put it back up again.
iwillgonow: You mean the verse?
jello13091: yes
jello13091: am I explaining this?
psycho314t: 1John:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
jello13091: Why am I>
iwillgonow: Because you paid attention, there doesn't need to be any reason.
iwillgonow: Because you GET TO.
jello13091: Born of God means born again. Once forgiveness is asked of and then given. And then it goes right into how Jesus was a man while here on earth and how He had the same ability to sin as we do or else God would be considered unfair, which is what Satan tries to teach man.
iwillgonow: Help her out Jennifer.
jello13091: I'm missing the transition.
jello13091: How we got to Jesus was a man on earth from being born again.
psycho314t: well, she didnt even see my original question.. which was if Jesus is the born of God, then doesnt that contradict what we already know about His ability to sin
psycho314t: but the answer was that the born of God in that verse isnt talking about Jesus.. and the rest of jacobs explanation was just backing up what we've learned recently...
iwillgonow: What about how it says "cannot," not "will not?"
psycho314t: take the "cannot" in context... right before that, it says "doth not commit sin"... which to me explains that perfectly.. with the spirit of God, you dont do sinful acts to begin with, its not that sinful acts are suddenly not sinful anymore..
iwillgonow: To mean "cannot sin" doesn't mean can do sinful acts and not be held accountable! Good.

07/28/01

iwillgonow: Julie, because the Muslims dedicated the visitor center at the Ark of Noah with the ceremonial slaying of a lamb, so that it's blood could cleanse the earth, and Ron Wyatt show'd no sign of digust or disagreement with them for this deed, and we know Ron has been priveleged by God to find what he's found, does that make what they Muslims did ok?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Do you know what JESUS said about people who would sacrifice animals after the sacrificial system was fulfilled?
jello13091: I dont but I'm sure it was something bad.
iwillgonow: "He that killeth an ox, is as if he sleweth a man."
iwillgonow: "He that offereth a sacrifice, as if he offereth swine's blood."
iwillgonow: Vain oblations.
iwillgonow: There are examples of "Godly" men who did wrong things, and God did not condone their behavior, nor were they excused from their actions because they were favored of the Lord.
iwillgonow: David was a man after God's own heart.
jello13091: What did he do wrong?
iwillgonow: David had so many wives I can't even remember how many.
jello13091: ah
iwillgonow: Was that OK for David?
iwillgonow: Or something?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: Was David still after God's own heart?
jello13091: yes
psycho314t: ive often wondered that.. how all the ot ppl had so many wives..
iwillgonow: So what's up? Does that appear to show that God accepted that behavior from those "special" men or what?
jello13091: They pro.b. got a type of punishment for it.
jello13091: David was chased for many years.
jello13091: Moses was good but hit the rock....he couldn't enter the promised land
jello13091: Jacob tricked his father and fled for many years also
iwillgonow: EgW writes of how Jacob was WRONG to deceive Esau.
iwillgonow: It was not ok.
jello13091: i know
iwillgonow: And because of it he suffered much strife, when God would have provided for Him a much easier path.
jello13091: i know
iwillgonow: I was nearly astonished to see Ron Wyatt shake hands with that man after watching that sacrifice.
iwillgonow: I just couldn't see how he could condone that sort of behavior.
iwillgonow: Or be a part of it.
jello13091: I thought he wouldve said something about it
iwillgonow: And I don't think that just cause Ron found the Arks and everything else he's found, that that sacrifice was ok.
jello13091: it isn't justified
iwillgonow: Just like I don't think because David was a man after God's own heart, that it was ok for David to have hundreds of wives.
jello13091: it prob. wasn't.....therefore he got punished...
iwillgonow: But you just say prob.
iwillgonow: As if maybe God's a liar?
iwillgonow: And it IS ok to have many wives?
jello13091: ok, it wasnt.Therefore he got punished
iwillgonow: Well which one is it Julie? Yes or no?
jello13091: No, it isn't ok
iwillgonow: Do you know WHY it's not ok to have many wives, Julie?
jello13091: wouldn't it be like adultery, or coveting?
iwillgonow: There's a reason for the commandments.
iwillgonow: No Julie, I mean why.
iwillgonow: Like why do you look both ways before you cross the street? SO YOU DON'T DIE.
iwillgonow: Don't get hit by car.
iwillgonow: Why's it not ok to have many wives?
jello13091: Why it's not ok is because it would be breaking the commandment saying no adultery or coveting
iwillgonow: But what's the reason? HELLO, I'm speaking english here.
psycho314t: b/c its not an example of Gods perfect love?
jello13091: HELLO...i'm answering
jello13091: it shows impurity
iwillgonow: You're told not to cross the street without looking both ways so you don't get hit by an oncoming car.
iwillgonow: You're told not to have many wives because....
iwillgonow: ...a man that doeth so "destroyeth his own soul."
iwillgonow: Does destoying your soul sound like a GOOD thing?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: I'm a man.
iwillgonow: I've had more than one girlfriend in my life.
iwillgonow: I know what that means.
iwillgonow: It is a ruining corruption, like a decaying of your sanity.
iwillgonow: It destroys your soul; the rule is for your own good.
iwillgonow: As are all the commandments.
iwillgonow: Why would God withhold any good thing from us?
psycho314t: He wouldnt
iwillgonow: We are restricted for our safety.
iwillgonow: Our welbeing.
iwillgonow: Which is what any good law should do.
iwillgonow: You know, I can imagine a woman with multiple husbands saying that that commandment only applied to men, since it said "men."
iwillgonow: That's how sorry humans are.
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: But such blatent absences of logic are prevelent today against the Sabbath and the Old Testament, Ten Commandments..."It's only for the Jews..."
iwillgonow: If the woman thing is ridiculous to you, why not the second as well?
iwillgonow: Men in the Bible is mankind.
jello13091: it is
iwillgonow: Who doesn't know that?
psycho314t: alot of ppl, id say
iwillgonow: Sad
iwillgonow: If women could have multiple husbands but not men multiple wives...wait, uh, duh, um, I'm cunfused... oh THAT'S RIGHT, you can't do either cause to do one is to do the other!
iwillgonow: But somebody out there can't see that?
jello13091: alot of people can't
iwillgonow: I wonder how many laws females would be exempt from if it didn't actually physically say "women" before the commandment...
iwillgonow: Maybe...all of em.
psycho314t: 99%, at least
iwillgonow: Ha, how come I don't see the "Church of the women who don't have to do anything because they haven't been specifically commanded to do so?"
jello13091: I'm sure there is one!
psycho314t: haha
iwillgonow: What a shame.
iwillgonow: So their husband(s) are given all these commandments while they do whatever they want to.
iwillgonow: I'd want to be a female.
jello13091: that would just mean, less women in Heaven
iwillgonow: And this idea is hilarious and it's obviously wrong, but somebody's doing it. Somebody is saying "I'm a woman, not a man, so that doesn't apply to me" out there somewhere.
iwillgonow: Just like people say the Ten Commandments and Sabbath are for the Jews alone...
iwillgonow: And both are downright....
iwillgonow: wrong.

08/04/01

iwillgonow: I'm going to try to keep from laughing out loud.
iwillgonow: Jesus broke the Sabbath without sin in John 5:18. This proves the Sabbath was not a moral law but a ceremonial one.
iwillgonow: .......
iwillgonow: I'm really trying hard to not laugh.
iwillgonow: First thing, Jennifer, is to paste John 5:18.
psycho314t: John:5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
iwillgonow: Now do you remember how Jesus had "broken the Sabbath?"
psycho314t: erm... either the corn field or healing
iwillgonow: Yup.
psycho314t: or both?
iwillgonow: WHO'S Sabbath did He break?
iwillgonow: Well let's see, you got your good ole fashioned common sense that says HE DIDN'T SIN AGAINST GOD, SO I GUESS IT WASN'T GOD'S SABBATH.
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: He broke the CEREMONIAL regulations of the Jews, saying you can't pick some food up to eat it on the Sabbath.
psycho314t: the arguments i really like are the "no one from adam thru moses observed the sabbath, cuz the sabbath didnt exist until moses' time."
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: And what's the answer to that you just said above, Jennifer?
psycho314t: they had the same argument for the rest of the laws.. said the law didnt exist until moses came down from mt sinai... but if sin existed in those times before moses, the law obviously did too
psycho314t: and God sanctified the 7th day at creation
iwillgonow: And what's the first word of the fourth commandment???????????????????????????????????????????????
iwillgonow: HELLO?
psycho314t: remember
iwillgonow: ...
psycho314t: REMEMBER the sabbath
iwillgonow: You had to look it up or something!?!?
psycho314t: of course not
psycho314t: YAHOO DOESNT MAKE ANY NOISE
psycho314t: or blink
iwillgonow: This site says the ten commandments are abolished.
iwillgonow: I don't see how anybody for any reason could say those commandments don't have merit, either now or ever before or ever into the future; How could not having any god before God be any less relevant today than 6,000 years ago?
iwillgonow: May I murder now?
iwillgonow: Did Jesus die so I could commit adultery with other men's wifes?
iwillgonow: HUH?
iwillgonow: Is that what they're wanting you to do?
iwillgonow: Or telling you you can?
iwillgonow: Are my parents not worthy of respect because Jesus died?
psycho314t: oops... that time i went to go get grapes. ya, that site also says we're sposed to do communion every week
jello13091: What have I missed
iwillgonow: Julie, Jennifer found a site that says the ten commandments are abolished.
psycho314t: that site is very dumb ; )
iwillgonow: I'm going to ask you some questions.
iwillgonow: Did Jesus die so that I could:
iwillgonow: commit adultery with another man's wife?
jello13091: He came to fulfuil the law, not to abolish it
psycho314t: the site also bashes egw... says she was a plagarist
iwillgonow: Answer yes or no.
jello13091: Fulfil meaning to perfect
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Kill you?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Cuss out God?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Make my parent's worth nothing?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Have a god before God?
jello13091: No
iwillgonow: Did Jesus die so that I could go take my neighbors car?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: Did Jesus die so that I could violate the natural rules of life, the common sense values every created sentient being should have to live peacefully, happily and in harmony, like God intended?
jello13091: no
iwillgonow: Then why are these people saying exactly the opposite of YOU?
jello13091: Because they don't want to be under the "hard" rules of God.
jello13091: They think fulfil means finish
iwillgonow: Why are these people saying "JESUS DIED and the ten commandments died with Him," WHICH IN EFFECT MEANS WE CAN DO THAT STUFF.
jello13091: Because Satan has decieved them
iwillgonow: Isn't that amazingZ
iwillgonow: ?
iwillgonow: "Christians," are the most evil people on the face of the earth.
iwillgonow: Ask the Bible.
iwillgonow: It'll say the same thing.
iwillgonow: Those who do evil in the name of good are more EVIL than those who do evil for evil.
iwillgonow: In the name of LOVING God and OBEYING JESUS, they toss the Ten Commandments out the window?
iwillgonow: What ironic stuff!
iwillgonow: HUH?
psycho314t: sorta like what julie and i were talkin about last night
iwillgonow: Who does more damage, I say!? A man who does evil and says it's evil, or a man who does evil and says he is holy, and others are led by his "holiness" to do evil!!!!!
iwillgonow: THINKING THEY DO GOOD!!
jello13091: The chapter on Korah
psycho314t: the ppl pay attention to God's small wonders, but ignore the huge plagues, etc rebuking them
psycho314t: the ones doing evil in the name of good are worse, b/c they teach others wrongly
jello13091: The good people are looked upon as the ones that cursed them, or led the others to death
iwillgonow: ...haha.
iwillgonow: We Speak truth in LOVE
iwillgonow: And curse God and all that's sacred.
iwillgonow: At the same time?
psycho314t: heh. thats takes talent
iwillgonow: You can't find a more powerful destroyer of truth than people who do it "out of love for you," "because they care," "because they can't stand you to be in error..."
psycho314t: Let us heed the warning of Isaiah:
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
jello13091: So what's the deal with all the laws mentioned in Leviticus and Deutoronomy? Were they part of the sacrificial laws that ended when Jesus died, or are some of them still to be observed today?
iwillgonow: List each and every single one of them, and we'll discuss it and verify or obsolete it.
Yahoo! Messenger: montaro86 has joined the conference.
psycho314t: we were just about to discuss the laws of leviticus & deuteronomy
montaro86: ahhh..
montaro86: *runs n gets his notebook*
iwillgonow: Julie wants to know what's still valid and what's not.
psycho314t: ive had that question too, but never asked it
jello13091: 1) burnt offerings....prob. not valid anymore
iwillgonow: Good guess.
iwillgonow: Julie, I asked you to list every single law/ordinance/custom/whatever so we could go over it.
iwillgonow: You need to paste the verse, one at a time.
jello13091: I'm looking for them. The first few chapters in leviticus deal with burnt offerrings and sacrifices and peace offerrings.
jello13091: You want me to paste 2 chapters?
iwillgonow: Whatever you have a question on as to being valid today.
jello13091: They are just general idea
jello13091: s
psycho314t: most of the levitical ones are about cleanliness, arent they?
iwillgonow: Well are you going to give a general idea with text to support it or not?
jello13091: Some of these deal with the Tabernacle which I know isn't valid.....transferring the sin to a bullocks head, killing it, yadda yadda
jello13091: I can't paste the whole book of Leviticus
jello13091: Cahpters 1-4 go on the same idea
jello13091: I only have questions on the not so obvious ones
montaro86: Isn't transferring sin to a bullocks head similar to the scrape goat ?
jello13091: yeah
montaro86: ok, I'm just trying to figure what difference there is, like is it a different time period, etc...?
jello13091: Now it moves into sin anf burnt offerrings Levi:5:6: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
Levi:5:7: And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.
jello13091: The goat was on the Day of Atonement
montaro86: ah I just read that in my notebook as you said it.
jello13091: One goat was sacrificed and the other had the sins of the congregation placed on it's head and was led out into the wilderness
iwillgonow: So........question?
jello13091: None yet.
montaro86: and in order to cleanse the temple, the blood of the first goat, the one given in the name of God, was sprinkled on the mercy seat....yes?
jello13091: Did the temple have to be cleansed?
psycho314t: thats what the atonement was, i thought.. to remove the sins from the temple
montaro86: yeah .. cleanse the temple of sin?
jello13091: The blood would also show the coming of Jesus and the shedding of His blood for the sins of man
psycho314t: symbolism.. showing that the sins werent actually done away with at the time of the sin offerings thruout the year, but foreshadowing something greater to come in the future that could actually take away sins
jello13091: I thought I had this written down somewhere...
iwillgonow: Yall are scrambling for notes, but doing fine.
montaro86: heh
jello13091: Levi:10:9: Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Levi:10:10: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
jello13091: Levi:11:3: Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, [and] cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
Levi:11:4: Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: [as] the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
Levi:11:5: And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
Levi:11:6: And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
Levi:11:7: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
Levi:11:8: Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.
iwillgonow: What is the question, Julie?
jello13091: Levi:11:9: These shall ye eat of all that [are] in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
Levi:11:10: And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you:
Levi:11:11: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Levi:11:12: Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you.
Levi:11:13: And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospr
montaro86: *back*
jello13091: Levi:11:14: And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
Levi:11:15: Every raven after his kind;
Levi:11:16: And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckoo, and the hawk after his kind,
Levi:11:17: And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
Levi:11:18: And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
Levi:11:19: And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
Levi:11:20: All fowls that creep, going upon [all] four, [shall be] an abomination unto you.
Levi:11:21: Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon [all] four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
Levi:11:22: [Even] these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beet
iwillgonow: Julie, NO spamming.
iwillgonow: Ask a question when you post the verse.
jello13091: tle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
Levi:11:23: But all [other] flying creeping things, which have four feet, [shall be] an abomination unto you.
Levi:11:24: And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.
Levi:11:25: And whosoever beareth [ought] of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
Levi:11:26: [The carcases] of every beast which divideth the hoof, and [is] not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, [are] unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
jello13091: I'm not done posting yet
iwillgonow: You're posting too much.
jello13091: Levi:11:27: And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on [all] four, those [are] unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.
Levi:11:28: And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they [are] unclean unto you.
Levi:11:29: These also [shall be] unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
Levi:11:30: And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
Levi:11:31: These [are] unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
jello13091: You wanted me topost what pertained to the issue.
iwillgonow: You can't post the whole book and then ask a question.
montaro86: lol
iwillgonow: You have to restrict your selection to exactly what pertains.
jello13091: Well that's what I was saying before
iwillgonow: So stop spamming now.
jello13091: but I'm done posting now
jello13091: All that still pertains, correct?
iwillgonow: Or ask your question first, then find a small selection to support it.
jello13091: But all of that had to do with it
jello13091: Levi:11:42: Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon [all] four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they [are] an abomination.
iwillgonow: The Bible is a contiguous unit; it all goes together. that doesn't mean you need to post the whole thing, get my drift?
iwillgonow: ONE verse at a time, then a question.
jello13091: Well, I asked about that earlier, but I got no response
jello13091: So the clean and unclean animals still pertains today, correct?
iwillgonow: Yes, and we didn't need the list to tell you that.
jello13091: Levi:12:2: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
jello13091: Is a woman still unclean
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: Wait.
iwillgonow: We're not done with the first thing.
jello13091: You said yes
iwillgonow: You tell me why the clean/unclean animal regs still apply.
jello13091: Becuase you are what you eat
iwillgonow: Help her out.
psycho314t: cuz the food is bad for u
jello13091: It wrecks your body
jello13091: Confuses your mind
psycho314t: and the rules didnt exist before cuz ppl didnt used to eat meats
iwillgonow: The reason they were commanded in the first place was because now that the flood was over, all vegitation was gone.
iwillgonow: What would the human race eat?
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Their stocks would run out.
iwillgonow: But animals they had many.
iwillgonow: Therefore on a NEED basis, animals were allowed to be eaten.
iwillgonow: And distinctions needed to be made, since for the first time they were allowed to be consumed, between which were good to eat and which were not good to eat.
iwillgonow: Eating a bad animal is like eating a piece of clothing.
iwillgonow: It's not of nutritional sense to eat.
iwillgonow: When Jesus died, did clothing suddenly become good for food?
jello13091: i hope not
psycho314t: haha
iwillgonow: Well then did pigs?
psycho314t: nope
montaro86: *is going to get d/c'ed in 10mins*
iwillgonow: What logic is there to make a connection between the death of Jesus, and the supposedly instant cleanliness of unclean animals?
iwillgonow: None.
psycho314t: nope
iwillgonow: Animals that were bad to eat before He died.
iwillgonow: Were bad to eat 4 minutes after He died.
iwillgonow: And are still bad to eat now.
jello13091: Are still bad
iwillgonow: Do any of you know WHY pigs are bad to eat?
montaro86: no?
psycho314t: bad for the liver or something
psycho314t: i saw somewhere that they cause as much cirhossis as drinking alkohol
jello13091: The have cloven feet
jello13091: ?
iwillgonow: Pigs do not have to ability to process toxins, like other animals do; they pour out of their flesh.
psycho314t: o.. and dont chew the cud
montaro86: talk about food is making me feel sick
iwillgonow: And what part of pigs do people eat? The bones?
psycho314t: flesh
jello13091: it's making me hungry
montaro86: the flesh
iwillgonow: People like the salty, sweet taste.
jello13091: pig was good
psycho314t: but the salty/sweet = poisin
psycho314t: yeah, pig was good : \
montaro86: julie: after 5 cups of coffee...the thought of anything going into ur mouth makes u feel sick
iwillgonow: But that's a byproduct of their inability to process the hazardous wastes their bodies create from the absolute muck they eat.
psycho314t: monty: stop drinking coffee : P
montaro86: ill fall asleep if i do
iwillgonow: So God is the God of common sense: It's just not smart to eat clothing, or metal, or hazardous wastes, so He said "Don't."
montaro86: True.
jello13091: Oh man, I was just about to have some of that for lunch..... that metal..... yum
iwillgonow: 98% of the pigs grown and sold for food in America, probably the world, have tape worms.
iwillgonow: That's fact.
psycho314t: yeah... and i was just about to go eat one of my sweaters...
montaro86: hahaha
jello13091: My jeans are looking pretty good....
iwillgonow: That's why it's law that the label for pork says "Cook until well done," because all the lava cysts have to be killed.
iwillgonow: *larva
iwillgonow: These worms can survive in the human intestinal tract, and cause numerous disorders.
montaro86: oh
montaro86: man
psycho314t: jacob... shhh
psycho314t: we get the point
montaro86: i dont think i wanna eat pork again
psycho314t: no more pork
iwillgonow: They can cause gastro-instestinal bleeding...ok, I'll stop.
psycho314t: good
montaro86: *covers his eyes*
psycho314t: hmm... suddenly im not so hungry anymore
psycho314t: moving on... eeh
iwillgonow: Good way to motivate ppl against eating animals.
psycho314t: lol.. he does have a point tho, monty
iwillgonow: I don't eat any anmials, clean or unclean, because of today's sanitary conditions and the way meats are processed and refined. USDA choice is not very choice at all, just go to a slaughter house and you'll never eat beef again.
montaro86: a little too good for my liking :\
jello13091: Youre not supopssed to eat anything with blood in it
psycho314t: or fat
iwillgonow: Entire green tumors are simply cut out with a large knife, leaving green streaks where it's infested the rest of the meat, but after the body of the tumor is cut out, they stamp it USDA choice...
jello13091: ok please stop
psycho314t: enuff!
jello13091: as much as we enjoy hearing about tumors we've eaten....
jello13091: stop
iwillgonow: Haha, for your benefit and knowledge.
iwillgonow: Back to Julie's questions.
iwillgonow: What's the next one?
jello13091: If a woman is still unclean after birth, for a week Levi:12:2: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: Now you tell me why.
jello13091: because Jesus dying had nothing to do with purity of women
iwillgonow: Or the fact that women menstruate.
iwillgonow: They did before He died,
iwillgonow: they still do.
iwillgonow: The reason a woman is unclean for a week after birth is obvious; it's common sense, from the God of common sense.
iwillgonow: So..... what is it?
jello13091: Cause she's gross
psycho314t: cuz... theyre bleeding during that time?
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: The birth canal is bleeding from the damage.
iwillgonow: And needs time to heal.
iwillgonow: Not be be reagrrivated b4 it's fully repaired.
jello13091: So whenever a woman is bleeding, she is unclean and should be kept away of>
iwillgonow: She should not have sex, without a question.
jello13091: This was my torah portion for my bat mitzvah and I had to give a speech on it and purity after leprosy
jello13091: well that would be gross anyway
iwillgonow: Whether or not to be thrown out of town? That might have been due to the customs of the time.
iwillgonow: The idea is the health issue.
jello13091: Ok are we moving on? I dont really want to get into bloddy sex stuff like the meat issue
iwillgonow: All sorts of problems could occur from any sort of aggrivation to the vaginal tract during menstration or after the disruption of birth.
psycho314t: yeahyeah, we get that
jello13091: it's gross
psycho314t: what about the things she touches tho
iwillgonow: Hm...that's like the casting her out of town.
iwillgonow: You still shouldn't touch dead carcasses.
iwillgonow: Cause if you do you got death filth on you.
iwillgonow: I don't know if there's any actual physical transmission of uncleanliness from a woman's touch during menstration, that's science I dunno about.
jello13091: There's alot of Jewish tradition (don't know if it's biblical or not) saying that during her period, a woman should sleep in a different bed as her husband and she has to go to the mikvah (like a bath) to be purified at the end
psycho314t: oh ya. what about touching unclean meats? my mom has asked me several times to prepare pork chops or hot dogs or whatever for them
iwillgonow: Tradition is tradition.
psycho314t: actually, thats biblica
psycho314t: l
psycho314t: Levi:15:26: Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation.
Levi:15:27: And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even.
iwillgonow: You touch worms, you got worm on you.
iwillgonow: Ok, let's use common sense.
iwillgonow: Say women wore dresses back then.
iwillgonow: No panties.
iwillgonow: And dripped in the bed.
jello13091: yuck
iwillgonow: Sure, it would be unclean.
iwillgonow: As would anything that "it" touches, being her blood.
jello13091: gross
psycho314t: ick
jello13091: is there anything we can talk about that we can't make disgusting!?!
iwillgonow: Suffice it to say, if you're not actually contaminating something, physically contaminating it, then don't worry about it, unless there's some spiritual application we don't know of that's not a health issue.
jello13091: So basically we shouldn't walk around without underwear on?!
jello13091: Or else we'll contaminate everything
iwillgonow: We need to understand regulations that might only apply to the customs or fashions of the time.
iwillgonow: Such as the baldness during Paul's time, for worship of Aphrodite.
iwillgonow: Remember?
jello13091: That's actually really gross, walking around without underwear on during a period
psycho314t: no?
psycho314t: yeah, it is
iwillgonow: Situational, just applying to that circumstance.
jello13091: no
jello13091: we dont know what youre talking about though
iwillgonow: Ok...
iwillgonow: During Paul's time, after the death of Jesus, there was a problem.
iwillgonow: Priestesses of Aphrodite were required to shave their heads.
iwillgonow: But when these women converted from paganism, they were still bald headed.
iwillgonow: It was a disgrace.
iwillgonow: Paul asked they cover their heads with a cloth.
iwillgonow: So as to not shame the church.
iwillgonow: That was a command ONLY relevant to that situation.
psycho314t: ooo
iwillgonow: Women today with HAIR don't need to cover their heads, get it?
psycho314t: and ppl still try to say women are supposed to cover their heads
jello13091: So what if a woman is bald now?
psycho314t: yeah, really.. someone w/ cancer or something
iwillgonow: Yeah, that's a missunderstanding.
iwillgonow: I suppose they could.
jello13091: What about men covering there heads?
jello13091: Like kippahs in Temple?
psycho314t: women are the glory of men
psycho314t: right?
psycho314t: or do i have that section backwards..
iwillgonow: But I don't think anyone would mistake a cancer victim of a worshipper of Aphrodite, and THAT'S what shamed the church and why Paul said covo yo head.
jello13091: hair is the glory of women
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: The hair of a woman is the glory of the woman.
jello13091: seriously
iwillgonow: The woman is the glory of the man, because she was made from man.
psycho314t: man is glory of Jesus, Jesus is glory of God
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: A ladder.
psycho314t: ya
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: Women, as Paul says in COMMON SENSE, should have long hair.
iwillgonow: Men should have hair shoulder-length or shorter.
iwillgonow: Cause that's how long it naturally grows.
iwillgonow: "Does not nature itself teach you..." he says.
jello13091: I'm afraid the next time i cut my hair it will be shorter than myshoulders cause my split ends are so bad.
jello13091: What about layered hair, jacob?
iwillgonow: What is layered hair.
psycho314t: ...
psycho314t: males
jello13091: I have layers shorter than my shoulders just around my face
jello13091: Where your hair is in different layers
psycho314t: yeah.. and prom night, my mom wacked off part of my hair shorter than the rest, its just down to my ears
iwillgonow: Uh...
iwillgonow: I dunno, pray about it.
jello13091: did you never notice how hair is different lengths in places?
iwillgonow: I don't look that hard.
psycho314t: he's a guy
jello13091: yeah
iwillgonow: Julie, you've learned about jewelry and make-up and braiding, haven't you?
jello13091: yes
jello13091: I have a question about that
psycho314t: what about braiding../
jello13091: Is it bad for a little kid to want to braid your hair and then she does but you take it out right afterwards?
psycho314t: ?
jello13091: What verse is that?
jello13091: You'll need to go to blueletterbible Jen. to get the braiding thing understood
iwillgonow: As bad as it is for a little kid to want to play make-up dressup with you and then yall do and then you take it off right afterwards.
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: There's a "shamefacedness" Paul talks about, Jennifer.
iwillgonow: Women adored in precious metals and stones, with braiding of the hair and fine garments, are not a glory to God, but to themselves.
psycho314t: blueletter or biblestudy.org..?
jello13091: blueletter....let me find the verse though
psycho314t: k. yeah, i knew about the fancy clothing and jewelry...
jello13091: 1Tim:2:9: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
jello13091: Look up the word broided
psycho314t: not that i braid my hair but like once a decade, but.. ah, k. thanx
jello13091: it's not just braiding though
jello13091: didn't we talk of this as an idea though. Like let's say I was blowdrying my hair and I twisted part of it up to get it out of the way...is that bad?
iwillgonow: No, of course not.
psycho314t: 1) what is woven, plaited, or twisted together
iwillgonow: Jennifer understands that.
iwillgonow: Braiding your hair as a matter of beautifying yourself to bring glory to yourself.
iwillgonow: Just as you could hold a piece of gold and not be sinning.
psycho314t: wha? julie means like .. ok
jello13091: but i can walk around my hosue in braids if i wanted my hair out of the way?
psycho314t: heh, thats what i was about to ask
iwillgonow: Yes. God knows the intents of the heart. As long as you don't make a bad impression by that example on others.
jello13091: ok
jello13091: I have a question
jello13091: 1Tim:2:15: Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. what does saved in childbirth mean?
iwillgonow: Jesus.
iwillgonow: Least that's what I was taught.
psycho314t: ..?
iwillgonow: Jesus coming through childbirth was the saving of women.
psycho314t: ooh
jello13091: hmmmm
jello13091: i guess that makes sense
iwillgonow: But I haven't studied that verse at all.
iwillgonow: Next question Julie.
jello13091: Circumsision I guess, I just lost where I was though because I was searching for something else
iwillgonow: Circumcision is not profitable without the reason it's done.
jello13091: Levi:12:3: And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
jello13091: ummmm ok
iwillgonow: Circumcision was also a token of the covenant that was given to Abraham, and paul makes it clear that we are spiritual heirs to that covenant of promise, not physical, so circumcision of the heart is really what is required, and the physical circumcision is a sign of that devotion, and a practice of health according to some sources.
jello13091: ok
iwillgonow: Being spiritual heirs makes it possible for ANYONE to be under the covenant, not just sons of Abraham or Jews or whites or men.
iwillgonow: Because the spirit is not a color or a sex, and it's ancestor is God alone.
iwillgonow: Your souls did not come from your parents' sperm and egg.
iwillgonow: Your body did.
jello13091: Levi:15:2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, [because of] his issue he [is] unclean.
jello13091: What is a running issue?
iwillgonow: blueletterbible it
iwillgonow: Miss "I don't want to talk about gross stuff."
psycho314t: ew..
iwillgonow: So what is it already?
jello13091: i'm looking!
jello13091: Is today the 4th?
iwillgonow: yes
jello13091: ewwwwww
jello13091: 1) to flow, gush, issue, discharge
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to flow, gush
1a2) to die, pine away (fig.)
1a3) to flow (of issue from woman), have an issue, flux
1a4) flowing (participle)
jello13091: should I be afriad to ask how a man has bad discharge?
iwillgonow: Urinary tract infection.
jello13091: ugh
psycho314t: that could mean like an oozing wound too, couldnt it?
iwillgonow: Obviously he'd be unclean, cause otherwise he could give it to his wife; another common sense rule from the God of common sense.
jello13091: Does that law still apply then if the women thing does? Levi:15:4: Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.
Levi:15:5: And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even.
jello13091: Gross
jello13091: Levi:15:9: And what saddle soever he rideth upon that hath the issue shall be unclean.
iwillgonow: Yes, if his "issue" or runoff touches the bed, don't sleep there, wash the sheets and clean up.
jello13091: hahahahaha!!! They didn't wear undies either!!! GROSS!
iwillgonow: This is common sense stuff, ppl.
iwillgonow: God's not ridiculous.
jello13091: Yuck, riding a horse or something without undies.
iwillgonow: Men wore turbins or robes too.
iwillgonow: In the middle east.
iwillgonow: Still do down there.
jello13091: yeah but they wear underwear
iwillgonow: I'm not saying they didn't, I'm giving that as a possible way for these cleanliness issues to be a reality.
jello13091: ugh...ok, next thing
iwillgonow: How could you contaminate everything you touched, if you were completely underweared and padded up?
psycho314t: ok, yes, can we move on? im eating now
iwillgonow: Obviously, if a man is going to contaminate his saddle when he rides a horse, he's not got underwear on.
jello13091: men wear pads?
iwillgonow: Of course not.
iwillgonow: That was for women.
psycho314t: ugh..
jello13091: hahah!!!
iwillgonow: Next question.
jello13091: hold on, i'mlooking a word up
iwillgonow: Julie asks all the no common sense questions that are gross, how ironic.
jello13091: Levi:15:25: And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she [shall be] unclean.
Levi:15:26: Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation.
psycho314t: heh. not really.. ive had the same q's, just didnt want to ask them
jello13091: so everything is unclean
iwillgonow: So what about it, Julie?
iwillgonow: EVERYTHING HER RUNOFF TOUCHES.
iwillgonow: You not understanding all my plain english?
jello13091: But we're not living back in the day
jello13091: we don;t runoff
iwillgonow: So it doesn't apply.
jello13091: ok!
iwillgonow: Just like the bald headed worshippers of Aphrodite.
iwillgonow: That was my whole point.
iwillgonow: Jennifer, you get this?
psycho314t: yup
psycho314t: so MOVE ON, please ; \
psycho314t: i'd like to eat my okra in peace
iwillgonow: And both of you get the reason why these rules still apply for common sense cleanliness' sake, like NO SEX when menstruating, and NO SEX when guy is infected. etc....
jello13091: sick of her flowers? I'm olooking that up
jello13091: GROSS!!
psycho314t: AAAARGH!
iwillgonow: It's common sense rules.
iwillgonow: Hahaha!
jello13091: so then it
jello13091: s ok for a man to lie with a woman on her period because she wouldnt be free flowing
iwillgonow: NO.
jello13091: and he wouldnt be unclean
iwillgonow: N-O
iwillgonow: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
jello13091: Levi:15:33: And of her that is sick of her flowers, and of him that hath an issue, of the man, and of the woman, and of him that lieth with her that is unclean.
iwillgonow: Julie...
psycho314t: she didnt say have sex with
iwillgonow: Are you for real.
psycho314t: or
jello13091: So a man shouldnt lie with a menstrating women?
jello13091: I said lie not sex!!!
iwillgonow: A man should not lie with a menstruating woman... oh, I thought you meant "Lie" like Biblical "lie," you know.
psycho314t: i think it usually means the same thing tho
jello13091: like lay down with
jello13091: sleep next to
psycho314t: sleep in the same bed as
jello13091: not have intercourse with
iwillgonow: That's fine.
iwillgonow: As long as she doesn't contaminate the bed.
iwillgonow: If she does, washing and separation.
jello13091: what kind of separation and for how long?
iwillgonow: Separate beds till she's not bleeding.
jello13091: oh
iwillgonow: NEEEEEEExT question.
psycho314t: this is such a lovely dinner topic
iwillgonow: JULIE KEEPS ON ASKING GROSS QUESTIONS!
jello13091: i'm looking, Leviticus is repetitive with burnt offerrings and stuff!
iwillgonow: WHAT A IRONIC TWIST.
jello13091: Levi:17:3: What man soever [there be] of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth [it] out of the camp,
Levi:17:4: And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
psycho314t: impute = attribute
iwillgonow: That's pretty self explanatory.
psycho314t: i remember looking that up
jello13091: