sabbath: understanding the day of rest
02/17/01
iwillgonow: I meantioned something earlier, and you gave no comment.
iwillgonow: I said "Sabbath."
psycho314t: ....? was it around the time i was coming/going? ohh.. last night?
iwillgonow: I said it today also.
psycho314t: i didnt see it today..
iwillgonow: You know what that word means?
iwillgonow: Or is?
psycho314t: jewish day of rest...? sundown friday night to sundown saturday night..
iwillgonow: Well done, you know your history.
iwillgonow: I keep it.
psycho314t: i sorta cheated.. i looked it up when you said it last night to make sure i was remembering correctly
iwillgonow: Ahhhh!
iwillgonow: I keep it, and I am not a Jew.
psycho314t: but i did remember correctly, so 
... yeah, i was wondering about that...
iwillgonow: What day do most people keep as the "Sabbath?"
psycho314t: sunday
iwillgonow: Yeah.
iwillgonow: That's another important topic, like Hell.
iwillgonow: And you know exactly why I brought it up, just like Hell, don't you!
psycho314t: cuz.. u wanna teach me about it?
iwillgonow: Haha!!!
psycho314t:
iwillgonow: Cause it's wrong just like Hell!
iwillgonow: I wanna teach you, haha...
iwillgonow: Not missing much in the chatroom.
iwillgonow: There is alot to know, you'll always have something to learn.
psycho314t: hmm.. is this on the biblestudy site too? and lol, ur a good teacher, & it was the first thing that came to mind
iwillgonow: It is, though I haven't looked at it much.
iwillgonow: I knew the Sabbath from old.
iwillgonow: I was raised to keep it.
psycho314t: ive never really known more about it than the what ive already said..
iwillgonow: Do you know why you keep Sunday?
psycho314t: b/c its the way i was raised..
iwillgonow: Well yeah, I meant have you ever looked into it, its history.
psycho314t: no, thats what i mean.. thats about as far as ive thought of it
iwillgonow: I'm not totally sure, but I think I mentioned the origin of Sunday worship being, for the modern churches, 400 A.D., when Constantine made the entire world (Holy Roman Empire) worship on Sunday or face death.
psycho314t: yup, i think you did..
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/sabbsdf.html
psycho314t: aha
psycho314t: oh yeah.. i finished reading it.. forgot to say anything, the phone rang
iwillgonow: k
psycho314t: thats kewl... id never looked into any of that before...
iwillgonow: Not the most factually informative, but an overview, yes.
psycho314t: ya.. at least it gave some scripture
02/18/01
psycho314t: http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/sabbath-twelve-hours.html i still havent gotten to read any of it, but thats what i was talking about
iwillgonow: P.S. They are correct, they say the day is 24 hours.
psycho314t: ...? ohh.. i still need to go back & read it...
03/31/01
thisissoslow: You remember us talking about the Sabbath?
thisissoslow: The fourth commandment?
psycho314t: keeping the sabbath? yeah, i know
thisissoslow: It says "thou shalt not buy nor sell."
thisissoslow: I forgot to tell you before you left to get food.
psycho314t: it also says for no one to leave his or her house, doesn't it?
thisissoslow: You can show me the verse, but that wouldn't discount the fact we are not to buy or sell on the Sabbath.
psycho314t: but what can i do, commandments also say obey your parents
thisissoslow: Well you know, if your parent's say "disobey God," who you gonna obey?
psycho314t: i know...
thisissoslow: I'm looking up the "house rule" now.
psycho314t: my family has never paid much attention to that commandment, for whatever reason
thisissoslow: Not many do, and you know that. :D
psycho314t: i dunno where it is in the scripture, i just remember reading it on the biblestudy.org page
psycho314t: yes, i know that too
thisissoslow: It's not in the Ten Commandments, so I'll search for it.
psycho314t: yeah, i was just looking for it too.. the buy/sell thing isnt in the commandments either
thisissoslow: Just a minute.
psycho314t: http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/sabbholy.html
psycho314t: Lesson two: The Sabbath could not be any one day in seven. It was established on a specific day. Some people tried to do otherwise and were left with smelly, worm eaten bread. Those who went out on the Sabbath to collect manna found none and were rebuked for their efforts: "How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the Lord hath given you the Sabbath, therefore He giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place [stay put], let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day" (verses 28,29).
thisissoslow: Of what book?
psycho314t: i'm looking...
psycho314t: exodus 16
thisissoslow: In context, it says people went out of their houses to get manna on the Sabbath, THEREFORE they were commanded to stay in their houses, cause there was no manna to be gotten.
thisissoslow: It is not wrong to leave your house on the Sabbath.
psycho314t: r u sure? i read the context, but it still looks general to me..
thisissoslow: It is clear.
thisissoslow: Let's go through it together now.
thisissoslow: Using english grammar, the sentence is continuous by the semi-colon, therefore referring to that specific event.
thisissoslow: Verse 28.
thisissoslow: Exod:16:28: And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
thisissoslow: This is referring to the disobedience of those who went out on the Sabbath to get manna, correct?
psycho314t: yeah
psycho314t: what about verse...32?
thisissoslow: Let's go in order.
thisissoslow: Now 29.
thisissoslow: Exod:16:29: See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
psycho314t: yeah...
thisissoslow: It says "See, the LORD gave you the Sabbath, and because you have the Sabbath He giveth you on the sixth day the bread for two full days; SO abide ye every man in his place (on the Sabbath day), let no man go out of his place on the seventh day, BECAUSE there is no manna, and He gave you two days of bread YESTERDAY.
thisissoslow: Correct?
psycho314t: correct
thisissoslow: So, do you see that it is ok to leave you house on the Sabbath, and that this was specifically referring to leaving to get manna when they were explicitly commanded to NOT go OUT TO get manna on the Sabbath cause there was none?
thisissoslow: The semi-colon makes it a equally important clause to the beginning of the sentence. It does NOT make it a separate, general idea that in non-related to the beginning of the sentence.
psycho314t: in that verse, yes.. but i thought the whole manna thing was to teach them a lesson about the sabbath, that there was no need to leave ur house
thisissoslow: The whole manna thing was to teach them that there was to be no gathering on the Sabbath, so that they may rest on the Sabbath day as commanded, instead of getting up at the break of day to gather food.
psycho314t: ok..
thisissoslow: Hence the "do baking before hand, and seething before the Sabbath" rule listed before that.
thisissoslow: Which is true, we aren't supposed to do heavy baking on the Sabbath.
thisissoslow: Or cooking.
thisissoslow: Only what is necessary to eat.
thisissoslow: As in, NO making of elaborate feasts.
thisissoslow: How does mommy rest and enjoy the Sabbath when she's slaving in the kitchen??? :D
psycho314t: heh.. she doesnt.. that's why she sends jen to sonic : \
thisissoslow: Well, next I need to find the verse about buying and selling.
psycho314t: (from biblestudy.org again:)
psycho314t: Much later, after the captivity when the leaders of Israel were anxious to restore obedience to God, a governor named Nehemiah rendered some judgements about the Sabbath (Nehemiah 13:15-22). In those days some of the Jews were carrying on all their normal activities on the Sabbath day including setting up farmers' markets in Jerusalem. By means of a "city ordinance" he forbade the marketing of produce in Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. There was little he could do about work done elsewhere, but in Jerusalem, he was governor. Even when they tried to set up markets outside of Jerusalem, he drove them away. If you have ever been to that kind of market, you will realize how it can shatter the peace of a Sabbath morning.
Some have taken this as proof that it is wrong to buy, sell, or even for money to change hands on the Sabbath. There are five things to be considered about this passage. First, there is nothing in the fourth commandment to prohibit money or goods changing hands on the Sabbath.
psycho314t: oops, i missed part of it... Second, although it is a small point, Nehemiah was the governor, and was establishing a Sabbath-keeping society. Different judgements may be called for in a non-Sabbath keeping society where you have no authority. Fourth, this is a judgement of a governor to meet a specific situation. While it is a precedent, it is a narrow precedent. Fifth, we have yet to consider Christ's judgements relative to the Sabbath.
thisissoslow: Good thing you asked me to prove it, cause I haven't found it yet. I'm rusty.
thisissoslow: Man, I can't find it.
thisissoslow: I must not be using the right words.
thisissoslow: Buy and sell don't work.
thisissoslow: Maybe purchase or something?
psycho314t: purchase.. exchange? i dunno
thisissoslow: This is crazy, I haven't had to prove it in years.
thisissoslow: And I don't remember where it is.
psycho314t: lemme go ask my gma, see if she can think of anything like it
psycho314t: all she can think of is when Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple...?
psycho314t: and she wants to see ur evolution book, so brb again
thisissoslow: Yes....and Nehemiah is getting better around chapter 10 and on.
thisissoslow: Having to find it manually.
thisissoslow: I'm gonna eat, but start reading Nehemiah at 10:31, around there and onward, to get an idea.
thisissoslow: You there?
thisissoslow: Nehe:10:31: And [if] the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, [that] we would not buy it of them on the sabbath, or on the holy day: and [that] we would leave the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt.
thisissoslow: That was a contract between God and the people, to not buy from them on the Sabbath.
thisissoslow: an oath
psycho314t: yeah, almost.. gotta put up laundry, gimme 60 seconds
thisissoslow: k
psycho314t: k
psycho314t: she decided to tell me the history of calvary baptist church... for about the 5th time... and yeah, i read 10:31... but i didnt really get it...
thisissoslow: People came to Jerusalem to sell things on the Sabbath.
thisissoslow: They did not buy from them, because of the OATH made with God and the people, referred to above that verse.
04/07/01
psycho314t: so why do ppl think that the sabbath is now sunday..? just b/c that's the day He was resurrected?
psycho314t: ARGH brb again >: \
iwillgonow: Yup.
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Did God say anything, did Jesus say ANYTHING, about changing the Sabbath day for any reason???
iwillgonow: Nu uh.
iwillgonow: To do so is to disobey the fourth commandment, which was made for a memorial of Creation, that the Creator rested, and so should we, for all time.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Did Jesus fulfill the Ten Commandments by dying at the cross?
iwillgonow: What was about them to be fulfilled in the first place?
iwillgonow: They are rules for living human beings to always follow.
iwillgonow: "Oh, Jesus died, so that means I can commit adultery."
iwillgonow: Where's the connection between Jesus death and the end of adultery being wrong???
psycho314t: there isn't one
iwillgonow: Basically the same arguement to forget the Sabbath.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Jesus commanded the fourth commandment.
iwillgonow: Humans decided that Jesus decided the fourth commandment was nullified by Jesus' death.
iwillgonow: Jesus only commanded the fourth commandment.
iwillgonow: Hm...
iwillgonow: I told you the historical roots of the sunday sabbath, didn't I?
psycho314t: the romans trying to take power away from the church, right?
iwillgonow: 400 A.D. Constantine, the current Roman Emporer and leader of the civilized world, decreed that in order to make "Christianity" the religion of the State, that Sunday would be the decided day of rest, in order to please the pagans who worshipped the sun on that day, and please the "Christians" by making up a belief that because Jesus arose on a sunday, it changed the Sabbath day somehow, like as a memorial of His ressurection, which is completely unBiblical and contrary to the fourth commandment.
iwillgonow: And so the Catholic church went along with this.
psycho314t: and everyone else seemed to follow..
iwillgonow: Search Constantine on the Internet. He wanted the glory of being the first "Christian" Roman Emporer.
iwillgonow: So he melded pagan and "Christian" days to compromise.
iwillgonow: Which is expressly forbidden by the Bible.
iwillgonow: Mixing pagan anything with God anything is wrong.
psycho314t: yeah
06/09/01
iwillgonow: A defense to my idea that keeping the Sabbath is not a matter of just doing normal until that very second where the sun goes down occurs, but being prepared mentally and physically BEFORE the Sabbath begins.
iwillgonow: My friend is a zealous Protestant. Several days later he wanted to know why I keep the Sabbath, so I gave him an article to read on the subject. Later he began discussing the Sabbath issue. As an "honest" student of the Bible, he admitted that Sunday is not the Bible Sabbath. The first issue he was concerned with was exactly WHEN the Sabbath begins. "When does your Sabbath begin?" I replied that the Bible indicates that Friday sunset is the beginning of the Sabbath. He said, "do you mean that at the exact split second of sundown, the Sabbath begins, and that if you are working after this time, it is sin, but if you are working before the exact moment of sundown, it is not sin?"
jello13091: How do we know?
iwillgonow: I replied that such a hairsplitting view was Pharisaical and contrary to the spirit of love and obedience to the Creator. The Sabbath is no different than any other Biblical law. There are definite, explicit dividing lines between obedience and disobedience. It is the natural human tendency to attempt to get as close to the dividing line as possible. On the other hand, some want to say that there is no dividing line, but instead they say there is a large grey area, which gives them a great deal of latitude to do as they please. Like any other Biblical law, the Sabbath law has to be rightly interpreted, that is, applied, to our personal lives.
iwillgonow: An example:
iwillgonow: Let's look at another of the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." If adultery is the act of illicit sexual intercourse, suppose I get in bed with my neighbor's wife and caress her, but don't complete the sexual act. Would I have committed adultery? Of course.
iwillgonow: The Messiah came to magnify -- expand to the full spiritual intent and purpose -- the law. He said that even to lust after another woman is the same as committing adultery.
iwillgonow: The Sabbath is no different. To go right up to the edge is NOT keeping the Sabbath in its spiritual intent.
iwillgonow: And this I believed.
iwillgonow: See?
jello13091: Hmmmmm....well than how long should you take to get prepared? Ten minutes? Thirty minutes? An hour?
iwillgonow: Spliting hairs is so "Jewish," Julie.
iwillgonow: Pharaseical, to be exact.
jello13091: Well, how long? I don't want to be breaking the Sabbath spiritually.
jello13091: It's a valid question.
iwillgonow: In the spiritual intent of the Sabbath, that day, from sundown fri. night to sundown sat. night, should be kept as commanded. To wait right up to the very second before the sun goes down and then be ready is NOT keeping that day. It's a violation of the sanctitiy of the Sabbath, of the mental and physical preparation and mindset needed.
jello13091: Ok.
iwillgonow: I usually am in Sabbath mode at least ten minutes beforehand.
iwillgonow: And continue it ten minutes afterwards.
jello13091: I was in it about 30 minutes before, last night.
iwillgonow: But my heart is the matter that counts, not the minutes I choose.
iwillgonow: NOT TO SAY THE LAW IS VOID, MAKING GOD'S COMMANDMENTS OF NO EFFECT!
iwillgonow: But knowing with surity the HEART is what must spiritually observe the Sabbath, or the law is worthless.
iwillgonow: Like circumcision, remember????
jello13091: Just can't go through the motions alone.
iwillgonow: Do you understand, Jennifer?
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Just as to sit still from sundown to sundown is not keeping the Sabbath, the mind and soul must be in observance as well or ALL SITTING is worth nothing.
iwillgonow: Read more, this is good.
iwillgonow: That is why I try to leave work at 4:00 PM on Fridays when sundown is at 4:30 PM. I want to be on the safe side, and be home by sundown. I don't always make it as a result of busy highway traffic, but that could happen even if I left work at 3:30 PM. I do NOT want to be at work a few minutes before sundown Friday. It is typical in our office for a "crisis" to occur on Friday afternoons. Some "crash project" simply "has" to be done. It must be Satan who causes this to happen. It is often difficult to get off work early in the midst of critical work. Nobody said the Christian life was easy. To go right up to the edge is tempting, but to do so would lead to occasionally going over the edge, and this would destroy the credibility of my religious beliefs in the eyes of my employer.
jello13091: I'm reading the whole thing on the website.
jello13091: . Non believers usually respect believers who are totally consistent, even if they do ridicule their beliefs. A believer who is unsure of himself will earn no respect.
iwillgonow: You see, "unconverted" people are often very logical. They can instantly spot religious inconsistencies and contradictions, "phonies." Suppose I did once work a half hour after sunset to help out because of a truly critical need. The next time I wanted to leave before the Sabbath, my employer would say "But you worked past sundown last time." If I worked past sundown for a big crisis why wouldn't I do it for a crisis almost as big? The road to compromise is easy to take, but there is no turning back. Non believers usually respect believers who are totally consistent, even if they do ridicule their beliefs. A believer who is unsure of himself will earn no respect.
TRUE!
iwillgonow: "When does your Sabbath begin?" My Protestant friend wanted to know. The underlying, unasked question was really, "Does your belief make logical sense, and are you consistent in doing what you say?"
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/sabbegin.html
iwillgonow: Continue reading on this page, Jennifer.
psycho314t: k
iwillgonow: Tons to copy and paste.
psycho314t: yeah
jello13091: This is a good article
iwillgonow: Very good so far.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: I'm at "will you lose your job..."
jello13091: The Savior went beyond this to the spiritual intent of the Sabbath. On the Sabbath, He demonstrated by His own actions that we must not just rest physically on the Sabbath, but we must also perform spiritual work of helping others. Yes at times even attending to human needs.
iwillgonow: The arrogant, demanding, self-righteous approach in discussing your need to obey God's Sabbath will not work well. Pray for wisdom to say the right thing, and not too much. Be calm, soft spoken, firm and to the point: "My religious beliefs forbid me from working from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. I would be glad to work extra hours at other times if needed." If your work record, no matter how brief, has been outstanding, there will seldom be any problem.
psycho314t: a quick semi-related question.. how would you keep the sabbath in like, alaska?
iwillgonow: We have raised chickens and have noticed how each evening they all go to roost like clockwork, at or even a little before sundown. The phrase, "to go to bed with the chickens" means to retire around sundown, before dark. Chickens go to roost at about the same time each day, regardless of whether the sun is visible. They are like a natural sunset clock.
jello13091: Keep reading. I think that will be answered
iwillgonow: An interesting book on this subject is The Lord's Day on a Round World, by Robert Odom (Seventh Day Adventist). During the winter at the Arctic Circle and further north, as well as in southern polar regions, there are times when the sun is invisible for 24 hours, and other times when it is visible for 24 hours or longer. During the time of complete darkness, Sabbath-keepers should observe the Sabbath from Friday approximately at noon to Saturday noon because that time was when the sun rose and set in Arctic midwinter. That is, before the sun disappeared, it both rose and set at noon. Conversely, during the period of complete light, the Sabbath is observed from midnight Friday to midnight Saturday, because the sun is at its lowest point around midnight during the time of the "Midnight s
psycho314t: aha.. im behind
iwillgonow: Another question involves the International Dateline. This is an imaginary line west of the Hawaiian Islands, in the central Pacific Ocean. When one crosses this "line" going west, it suddenly becomes the next calendar day! Imagine that it is Friday near sunset and you cross the Dateline going west. Now it is suddenly Saturday sunset. You have "missed" the Sabbath altogether! If you crossed the line from west to east, you could end up with two consecutive Sabbaths! Since the Sabbath-keeper would not normally be making a boat or plane trip over the International Dateline around Friday sunset, this situation should rarely, if ever, come up. When traveling, you should always stop and keep the Sabbath where you are, not where you have been.
HaHaaa!
iwillgonow: It is the natural, carnal human approach to either split hairs and come up to the edge of sin, or to believe there are no boundaries. On the one hand, we have those who will work until 4:29 when sunset is 4:30. On the other hand, we have those who will work up until or even after dark and still claim to be keeping the Sabbath. Neither are in reality keeping the Sabbath.
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/sabtruth.html More facts against a sunday Sabbath for you, Jennifer.
psycho314t: thanx
iwillgonow: (10) We are not to buy or sell on the Sabbath, Nehemiah 13.
iwillgonow: This is support for that.
iwillgonow: It is along with the shutting of the gates of the city of Jerusalem at the even of the Sabbath.
iwillgonow: (14) The Sabbath is a time to reason with others about spiritual principles, and for ministers to teach the word of God, Acts 17:2, 18:4, 11.
iwillgonow: Ultra Orthodox Jews still keep the strictly legalistic Jewish Sabbath regulations. In Jerusalem, Israel today, only about 30% of the Jewish population of 340,000 strictly observes the Sabbath.
iwillgonow: Orthodox Jews strictly limit travel on the Sabbath. Unless one lives within the prescribed allowed walking distance, he cannot attend synagogue services.
iwillgonow: According to a 1987 Associated Press story, here is how an ultra Orthodox Jew observes the Sabbath: Before the Jerusalem Sabbath siren wails at sundown Friday night, Orthodox Jews unscrew the light bulbs in their refrigerators so as not to inadvertently turn them on and violate the Sabbath. They turn off their water heaters. They hide money because it is a reminder of daily labor instead of divine rest. They cut their toilet paper in advance because ripping it would violate religious regulations. They light tall white candles moments before sundown because striking a match is banned during the Sabbath. These are some of the acts prohibited during the Sabbath: taking a bath, opening an umbrella, touching a pen (because they feel writing is work). Strict but complicated "carrying laws" gover
iwillgonow: govern what objects may be lifted and how far they may be moved.
iwillgonow: Many of these regulations are well intentioned but carried to the extreme. The Savior condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for their picayunish view of the Sabbath, when they ignored the big picture, Mark 7:1-13.
jello13091: Jacob, please give all the addresses you are going to. I can't get to them, but maybe i will be able to later.
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/gands/hdaybook/sabholy.html
iwillgonow: The "Sabbath day's journey" being 2,000 cubits outside the city walls is not a law of God, but an interpretation or tradition of the Jews. Today some may have to travel long distances in order to fellowship with brethren on Sabbath worship services. Nevertheless, the principle is that unnecessary travel is not consistent with Sabbath rest.
iwillgonow: Oh this is killer!
iwillgonow: To avoid losing their jobs, some have gone ahead and worked on the Sabbath and given the whole day's pay as an offering. However, "Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams," I Samuel 15:22. God doesn't want sacrifice and offerings as much as sincere trusting obedience!
psycho314t: so what does that say about your answer regarding firemen/police/doctors working on sabbath?
iwillgonow: That shoots down that doctrine of working and giving the money for that day.
iwillgonow: That says nothing in any way related to those people who work to HEAL on the Sabbath.
iwillgonow: That speaks of EVERYBODY, OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE who just work on the Sabbath but justify it with the idea they can give up the day's wages for an offering. That's what that means.
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: And now the other excuse!
iwillgonow: How often do "ox in the ditch" emergencies occur. The ox and the ass are surefooted creatures. Someday our family hopes to ride donkeys down to the bottom of Grand Canyon. We will be literally entrusting our lives to surefooted donkeys, that they will not fall off the edge. The odds against oxen and donkeys falling into the ditch on a regular basis are very high. A farmer could go through a whole lifetime and count on one hand the times he had to pull cattle or burros out of the ditch. Since the Sabbath is one day in seven, the odds are at least seven to one against these instances falling on the Sabbath. Use of the "ox in the ditch" principle should be rare indeed!
iwillgonow: INDEED!
iwillgonow: Perfect understanding.
iwillgonow: The principle of the ox in the ditch includes such genuine emergencies such as personal injuries, burning houses, power failures, accidents and other occurrences which would entail injury, loss of life or personal property. It does NOT include circumstances when a person pushes his ox into the ditch by not properly preparing for the Sabbath. Nor does it include harvesting or plowing on the Sabbath (see Exodus 34:21). A veterinarian once used the "ox in the ditch" principle to justify conducting his normal business on the Sabbath. This is NOT proper.
jello13091: I will be back in a sec. I have to restart.
iwillgonow: Well done use of God given logic and common sense to reason this through.
Yahoo! Messenger: jello13091 has left the conference.
iwillgonow: On the Sabbath, Jesus DID:
--attend worship services, where He read and expounded Scriptures
-- pray to His Heavenly Father and study the Bible
-- take a walk through corn fields and appreciated God's creation
-- heal people and tend to their physical and spiritual needs.
iwillgonow: (1) Sabbath activities should be God-centered rather than self-centered. Any recreational activity should not be an end in itself, but as a means to express delight in the Lord. Playing a Bible game to see who can score the most points in a competitive spirit is selfish. The challenge is not only to choose the proper Sabbath activities, but also to engage in them in a way that will contribute to honoring the Eternal.
iwillgonow: The Bible gives several specific examples of Sabbath breaking. The man who defiantly gathered sticks on the Sabbath, Numbers 15:32-36. Buying or selling on the Sabbath, Nehemiah 10:29, 31 and 13:32-36.
iwillgonow: Jennifer, are you reading about how buying and selling is against the Sabbath?
psycho314t: im not that far yet..
iwillgonow: Ronald L. Dart, in the Spring 1987 Twentieth Century Watch, article, "Keeping the Sabbath Holy," p. 10, said, "There is nothing in the fourth commandment to prohibit money or goods changing hands on the Sabbath." He says that the example against this in Nehemiah is a narrow judgment for that day only. The truth is, money is the result of work. Money is wages, labor turned into currency. Nehemiah 13:15-22 is a living principle for all time. If we keep God's Sabbath holy, we will not pollute God's Holy Day in such manner. When you buy gasoline, food or other items, unless it is an "ox in the ditch," you force someone else to work, which is a direct violation of the Fourth Commandment.
iwillgonow: The Nehemiah proof for not buying or selling is adaquit for me, along with the common sense that if I buy or sell, I cause someone to work on the Sabbath, which is a violation.
psycho314t: yeah, that was the proof we found for it before
07/20/01
psycho314t: http://www.godward.org/archives/Special%20Articles/7-Day%20Cycle.htm
psycho314t: Because of the bond between religion (Christianity especially) and the week, there have been two major attempts in modern times to obliterate the seven-day week in favor of a different length week. The first attempt came in the late 1700s. The humanistic French Revolution promised the people a new Age of Reason to replace regressive religious superstitions. A new secular, "rational" week of ten days was devised and approved by the ruling Convention in October, 1793.
psycho314t: The ten-day "decade" was patterned after the decimal principle, having ten days divided into ten hours, of 100 minutes each with each minute divided into l00 decimal seconds. Every tenth day, the "decadi" was reserved for rest
iwillgonow: Easy way to get them to work 2 more days a week.
psycho314t: yeah... and look at this one:
psycho314t: Not learning a thing from France's failure, the Communists ruling the Russian Revolution tried a second, even more radical experiment 140 years later. Their aim was the same: abolish religion by abolishing the seven-day week. The Soviet scene was a five-day continuous work week which called for 80 percent of workers to be on the job on any given day -- a plan which left 20 percent to share a day off. There was no longer a national day off. The advertised reason for the new rotating five-day week was to increase production.
psycho314t: that was in place for 11 years
psycho314t: the first one for 12
psycho314t: basically that the only 2 generally "approved" possibilities are... 1) say that the week is a cultural/religious invention of unknown date which gradually took root in the ancient world, evolving with time to the near universal acceptance we find today; or, 2) take the biblical record of the origin of the week (Genesis, chapters 1 & 2) at face value -- it was made by God at creation.
psycho314t: It comes as no surprise that most modern historians reject the second, or biblical model, and spend their ink documenting the first one, attempting to explain the strange phenomenon of a seven-day week.
iwillgonow: Haha.
iwillgonow: There is no documented origin for the length of the week, except the Bible.
psycho314t: "At first glance, it might seem that weekly rhythms developed in response to the seven-day week imposed by human culture thousands of years ago. However, this theory doesn't hold once you realize that plants, insects, and animals other than humans also have weekly cycles. . . . Biology, therefore, not culture, is probably at the source of our seven-day week."
iwillgonow: Otherwise it's just "always been that way."
psycho314t: heh. they say it hasnt, tho... supposedly, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 8 day weeks were "widespread" until those various cultures came into contact w/ judeo/christian traditions
iwillgonow: Not true.
psycho314t: yeah, i didnt think so
psycho314t: all ive ever heard was that the 7 day week was universal
iwillgonow: Even the heathens practiced a 7 day week, resting on the 7th day, UNTIL the one world governments of old phased that out with their rulings against it.
psycho314t: We take for granted the commonness of a world-wide seven-day week, but that hasn't always been the case. "Weeks" varying in length from three to nineteen days have existed in past cultures. In parts of Africa three, four (especially along the Congo river), five, six and eight day weeks are found, and always in association with market days. Along the Congo the word for week is the same as the word for market. In North America the Mayas of Yucatan -- skilled mathematicians and pyramid builders -- had clusters of five-day weeks. In South America the Muyscas had a three-day week, the Persians and Malaysians a five-day week. (3)
psycho314t: The ancient Etruscans, who inhabited the land the Italians do now, had an eight day market week which they passed on to the Romans no later than the sixth century B.C. As Rome expanded it encountered the seven-day week and for a time attempted to include both. But the coexistence of two weekly cycles was unworkable. The popularity of the seven-day rhythm won out and the eight-day week disappeared forever.
iwillgonow: 7 days was universal, has been for forever.
iwillgonow: MINOR variations have occured throughout history.
iwillgonow: But more than less have alwasy kept the seven day cycle.
07/28/01
psycho314t: oh, my grandmother found her tithe verse
psycho314t: it makes perfect sense to me, altho she of course disagrees..
psycho314t: 1Cor:16:2: Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
psycho314t: sounds to me like he wanted the tithes to be taken care of ahead of time, so when he spoke on the sabbath it was out of the way
jello13091: Yeah, first day of the week.....right after the Sabbath and before the coming of the next
psycho314t: exactly
Yahoo! Messenger: iwillgonow has joined the conference.
psycho314t: perfect timing.. was just telling julie about the verse my gma uses to say the sabbath was changed to sunday
psycho314t: 1Cor:16:2: Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
psycho314t: see if jacob agrees w/ our idea
iwillgonow: What does this even remotely hint to that supports sunday worship?
psycho314t: b/c she says tithes were collected on the day of worship
psycho314t: just like they are now
psycho314t: but julie and i agree that it seems like .. whichever disciple is talking, is wanting the tithes to be collected before he gets there on the next sabbath, so he doesnt have to waste his time w/ it
iwillgonow: Laying in store is something people used to do with food, grains specifically, but I'll read around this verse to see what we're dealing with.
psycho314t: ok, while u do that.. when i was looking up stuff related to that verse, i found another that im sure she'd say was proof of first day worship
psycho314t: Acts:20:7: And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
psycho314t: but if you read like 2 verses down, it says he preached until midnight, and then departed on a journey at daybreak
psycho314t: which he wouldnt have done on the sabbath
psycho314t: Acts:20:11: When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
jello13091: That first verse isn't even strong in proving first day worship
jello13091: They were together, they ate, and he gave a speech
psycho314t: yeah, i agree w/ that too
psycho314t: "but no, he preached, so it must have been the day of worship!"
iwillgonow: He preached on the Sabbath as well, and so did Jesus.
jello13091: Yeah, people preached ALL the time
psycho314t: i tried that one, too. didnt fly with her
psycho314t: im gonna go see what she says about this one, brb
iwillgonow: The bottom line comes down to people who would find any sort of remotely kinda sorta piece of speck of evidence to support sunday as a Biblical day of worship, and people who can see the vast facts of WHAT JESUS DID, what the disciples did, what the women at the tomb did AFTER JESUS WAS DEAD, and the obvious connections with the old testament, Creation, and the world to come, and cannot deny the overwhelming majority of the Facts which point to a COMMANDMENT given by JESUS, whom no man nor apostle nor power can change.
psycho314t: oh, i should have seen that one coming. the sunset to sunset days ended with Jesus death as well..... so the verse saying he left the next morning means nothing to her..
iwillgonow: Just considering the sheer number difference between the times the first day of the week is mentioned in the new testament and the times the Sabbath is mentioned, the Sabbath dominates absolutely, yet the pitiful few times the first day of the week is mentioned are looked upon as GREATER than the vast majority of the times the Sabbath is mentioned?
jello13091: So when was the Sabbath?!?!? For three hours in one day?!
psycho314t: i told her that too, that first day is only mentioned like 4 times... but nooo, "thats enough to show the change"
psycho314t: julie: i don't know. i suppose she thinks they suddenly went from midnight to midnight or something...?
iwillgonow: What of the tens of times the SAbbath is STILL mentioned?
iwillgonow: Where is the change there?
psycho314t: sabbath is defined as sunday after Jesus' death
iwillgonow: Not according to the women at the tomb.
psycho314t: hang on
iwillgonow: Who friday evening, went home to rest AS THEY WERE COMMANDED BY THE COMMANDMENT.
psycho314t: she isnt making any sense now
psycho314t: er.. i guess she wasnt before, but...
psycho314t: i asked her about the women
psycho314t: "yes, they went on the first day of the week because they knew it was the day He would arise"
psycho314t: "!!!!!! no they didnt! they went to annoint His body!"
iwillgonow: Luke:23:56: And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
psycho314t: "no they were worshipping Him on the first day" .... "no, they waited til the sabbath was over and then prepared their ointments for the body and went to the tomb on the next day." "yes, and the next day was the first day."
iwillgonow: And read around that; IT WAS FRIDAY EVENING WHEN THEY PREPARED SPICES AND THEN RESTED.
psycho314t: "... so what? it was still the day after the sabbath which they kept AFTER His death" "honey, i dont want to argue with you. ive read this and studied it for 70 years......"
iwillgonow: Look, this point cannot be argued.
iwillgonow: It's time order.
iwillgonow: It was friday.
iwillgonow: They prepared their spices to annoint Him AFTER the SAbbath.
psycho314t: i know.. i think i officially give up now
iwillgonow: Which they rested on according to the commandment.
psycho314t: she can look me straight in the eye and say that doesnt matter
psycho314t: the fact that they went to the tomb on the first day, which had nothing to do with worship, makes it the day of worship no matter what
iwillgonow: How could that be if they rested on the Sabbath, which is a privelege reserved for the day of worship?
psycho314t: like i said, her argument didnt make any sense
iwillgonow: There is nothing to support a sunday rest.
iwillgonow: Nothing.
iwillgonow: Not history.
iwillgonow: Not the Bible.
psycho314t: we know that
iwillgonow: Only tradition.
iwillgonow: And the decrees of pagan sun worshipers made religious and civil law, to the one world governments of the past and the catholic church who dominated then.
iwillgonow: We stand on two feet in solid facts all the way around.
psycho314t: yeah.. and she watched rives' whole thing about that... without any regard to it whatsoever.. "dont pay attention to this mans dates and things, he's just confused and confusing you" blah blah blah ...
iwillgonow: Others would rather grasp the edge of a cliff in a desperate attempt to hold onto their practices of all their lives, even if it costs them everything, including going against history and the Bible and reason and common sense and logic.
psycho314t: *sigh*
iwillgonow: I could say that rocks are alive,
iwillgonow: simply because I saw one split from the heat of the day.
iwillgonow: When ALL OTHER EVIDENCE points to their non-existence as a living organism.
psycho314t: and we'd have you committed
jello13091: hah!
iwillgonow: That's called being ridiculous, and not allowing your God given ability to use science and study and common sense to realize the overwhelming evidence that rocks are not alive, even in spit of that one rock cracking from the heat, they still do not have the other necessary evidences.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Learn from this that it's not good to think yourself wise and beyond being taught, even when you are old and gray.
iwillgonow: Or "how much you know" will keep you from knowing very much at all.
08/18/01
psycho314t: since God is all powerful, why did He rest after creation?
jello13091: The Sabbath was made for man
psycho314t: His resting was just an example for us to follow, then? that was the only answer i came up w/
jello13091: Maybe He knew that men would need rest years from then.especially if He knew that man would fall and would have to work for food sooner or later.
jello13091: Or He wanted to set aside a day for humans to relax and remember Him
psycho314t: yeah
psycho314t: ok. makes sense
iwillgonow: http://www.nisbett.com/devotions/devo8889.htm
iwillgonow: The Jews had so perverted the law that they made it a yoke of bondage.
iwillgonow: Their meaningless requirements had become a byword among other nations.
iwillgonow: Especially was the Sabbath hedged in by all manner of senseless restrictions.
iwillgonow: It was not to them a delight, the holy of the Lord, and honorable. The scribes and Pharisees had made its observance an intolerable burden. A Jew was not allowed to kindle a fire nor even to light a candle on the Sabbath. As a consequence the people were dependent upon the Gentiles for many services which their rules forbade them to do for themselves.
iwillgonow: And as you can see!
iwillgonow: It's ok to have fire on the Sabbath.
psycho314t: there's something about the sabbath in one of these books
iwillgonow: They did not reflect that if these acts were sinful, those who employed others to perform them were as guilty as if they had done the work themselves.
iwillgonow: And what does that justify you in not doing, Jennifer?
iwillgonow: Going out to eat.
iwillgonow: What are you if you go out to eat on the Sabbath?
psycho314t: ya.. making others work to prepare your meals
iwillgonow: You are an old Pharisee.
iwillgonow: Making a Gentile do the sin for you.
iwillgonow: Yet you will be held accountable as if you did it yourself.
psycho314t: when it says "you, and your household, and anyone within thy gates", it means those you have control over, right?
iwillgonow: Yes.
psycho314t: ok
iwillgonow: Anyone, stranger or otherwise, under your house, is subject to your rules.
psycho314t: only if you make the house rules tho
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: If you don't, you are held accountable to God for you.
psycho314t: roommates/siblings/parents dont count, cuz they dont listen..
iwillgonow: Because you are not the head of your family.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: And they are not under your will.
psycho314t: "...In Israel today, ... Many elevators are programmed to run continuously throughout the entire 24-hour period of the Sabbath, stopping on every floor as they ascend and descend; .. this ensures no one will be guilty of "breaking the Sabbath" by pushing the elevator button. ... Apartments throughout Israel have timers that automatically turn lights and other appliances on and off during Sabbath so that electrical switches do not have to be engaged. Ovens are built with a special Sabbath setting ... Refrigerators are designed so that the interior light bulb does not go on during Sabbath..."
iwillgonow: Dellusion.
psycho314t: extremely
iwillgonow: Bondage.
iwillgonow: Slavery.
iwillgonow: Oppression.
iwillgonow: The Sabbath is an evil taskmaster.
iwillgonow: How sad.
psycho314t: they contradict themselves, too
psycho314t: its "breaking the sabbath" to push the elevator button, yet not to open the fridge door..
iwillgonow: Haven't learned better in 2,000 years.
psycho314t: only for the light in the fridge to come on
iwillgonow: Yeah, they are so gone it's not even logical with their laws.
psycho314t: yeah
iwillgonow: Walking is lawful.
psycho314t: and starting a car isnt
iwillgonow: Walking 134 feet is not.
psycho314t: cuz the spark plugs create a fire
psycho314t: or something
iwillgonow: Jogging 30 feet is unlawful.
psycho314t: heh, it has a story in here about cars/walking
psycho314t: a rabbi apparently had a heart attack, so they called an ambulance
psycho314t: paramedics found out it was indigestion
psycho314t: there was practically a riot when they tried to start the ambulance
psycho314t: cuz there was no longer a life threatening situation
psycho314t: so they got to walk back to the hospital
iwillgonow: ...
iwillgonow: Backwards, blind people.
psycho314t: wonder if the hospital was in legal walking distance
iwillgonow: Imagine the freedom some of those Jews will have when they forsake their elders and customs and traditions for the true government of God.
iwillgonow: It will be a literal freedom to them.
iwillgonow: They can walk again.
iwillgonow: Go places.
iwillgonow: Be warm.
iwillgonow: Eat food.
psycho314t: have light
psycho314t: man... what a change
iwillgonow: Like they've never known in their lives.
iwillgonow: Never knew God was so good.
psycho314t: talk about good testimony... to those who believe Gods true law is "too restricting"..
iwillgonow: Yeah.
iwillgonow: Try following man's laws then.
iwillgonow: Much easier...not.
iwillgonow: "My yolk is light."
09/07/02
[13:46] <clumsyraine> orthodox jews wouldnt get online on the sabbath, would they?
[13:48] <Jello13091> nope
[13:47] <Vicerant> Electricity makes people work......uh, no it doesn't, all automated.
[13:49] <Vicerant> Typing on a computer is work....
[13:50] <clumsyraine> turning it on is work ;)
[13:50] <Vicerant> So is breathing...stop it this instant.
[13:50] <Vicerant> Leave it on since yesterday then. ;)
[13:50] <Vicerant> WUT YOU SAY NOW?
[13:50] <clumsyraine> rofl
[13:51] <Vicerant> AND STOP BREATHING THIS INSTANT!!! Your lungs need to rest...so does your heart muscle... :P
[13:52] <Vicerant> And shut your eyes too, poor things, always open on the Sabbath...
[13:52] <clumsyraine> -_-
[13:52] <Vicerant> No talking, tongue is tired.
[13:52] <Vicerant> JULIE SAYS THEY PRE-TEAR THEIR TOILET PAPER!
[13:53] <clumsyraine> yeah, i knew that one
[13:54] <clumsyraine> i think someone (like, back in the 1800s) taught not to take baths on the sabbath, but i could be wrong
[13:54] <Vicerant> :|
[13:54] <Vicerant> In a basin?
[13:54] <Vicerant> Are you sure?
[13:55] <clumsyraine> Make Friday the Preparation Day.--On Friday let the preparation for the Sabbath be completed. See that all the clothing is in readiness, and that all the cooking is done. Let the boots be blacked, and the baths be taken. It is possible to do this. If you make it a rule, you can do it.
[13:55] <Vicerant> Maybe it was hard work to get all the water together back then and heat it up, took hours...
[13:55] * clumsyraine shrugs
[13:55] <Vicerant> I'd go with the "no running water or plumbing makes bathtime hard work" on that one.
[13:56] <clumsyraine> that makes sense
