sanctuaries: the earthly & heavenly sanctuary systems

04/07/01

iwillgonow: I'm sure you've heard of the Catholic practice during the middle (Dark) ages, where for a fee, you could purchase tickets (pardons) that would allow you to commit a sin, while buying your forgiveness before you commit it.
psycho314t: no, i don't think i've heard that before..
iwillgonow: Really?
iwillgonow: Never heard of pardons?
psycho314t: not that kind of pardon..
iwillgonow: Catholic priests and cardinals could give them, along with Pardoners, who traveled the country selling them.
psycho314t: pardoner.. wasnt that one of the canterbury tales?
iwillgonow: Yes.
iwillgonow: The Catholic agent who sells pardons for money, as he did in the reading.
psycho314t: hmm... and i thought i paid attention when i read that...
psycho314t: i remember him being corrupt, but not much else
iwillgonow: What do you think about that? First, can man fogive man for sins? Second, can you get forgiven for your sins before you commit them?
psycho314t: no and no
iwillgonow: Now, are you ready to think, Jennifer?
psycho314t: well.. i dunno, maybe on the second one.. but forgiven by God, not man
psycho314t: i suppose so.. u've already got me thinking now
iwillgonow: If receiving forgiveness before you commit a sin is an impossibility, then why do "Christians" claim their sins were forgiven at the cross?
iwillgonow: How are your sins fogiven, Jennifer?
iwillgonow: It is good to think.
psycho314t: ... <: \ that was a little bit harder than i was expecting to have to think
iwillgonow: Well, if your sins were forgiven at the cross, than you'd be no better than the Catholics who thought they could receive forgiveness before they committed a sin. Kinda like riding a bicycle without putting it together first.
psycho314t: ok, wait.. our sins were paid for at the cross, with Christ's blood.. we still hafta ask for forgiveness tho
iwillgonow: Paid for?
psycho314t: isnt that how its worded?
iwillgonow: Like a tab at a bar?
psycho314t: i dont know.... <: \
iwillgonow: Anything that, in effect, pays or gives you forgiveness or credit for forgiveness of your sins before you commit them is, well, not possible. It's like being executed for murder before you commit it.
iwillgonow: You have to sin first, be forgiven of the sin you commit second.
iwillgonow: Fascinating...
iwillgonow: I love the stimulated mind.
iwillgonow: How can you be forigiven of something you...HAVEN'T DONE YET?
iwillgonow: In effect, you'd be being forgiven for nothing!
iwillgonow: Cause you didn't do anything!
iwillgonow: Amazing...
psycho314t: b/c.. it was an eternal sacrifice.. argh, i dunno..
iwillgonow: Now, Jennifer, think...
iwillgonow: Why did Jesus die?
psycho314t: to pay for our sins
iwillgonow: No.
psycho314t: : |
iwillgonow: Who's sins did His sacrifice cover?
psycho314t: everyones
iwillgonow: Those who hadn't sinned yet???
iwillgonow: Those who didn't exist?
iwillgonow: Impossible and unlogical.
psycho314t: eternal...
iwillgonow: How about..............
iwillgonow: The Old Testament.
iwillgonow: The slaying of lambs in faith.
iwillgonow: In faith of...
iwillgonow: a Messiah who would truely take away THEIR sin.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Who would be the lamb one day.
iwillgonow: The greatest lamb of all, the Lamb of God.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: That's it.
iwillgonow: It's that simple.
iwillgonow: His death was a sacrifice to ratify all the faith in Him for four thousand years.
iwillgonow: The faith in His sacrifice, that His blood would forgive their sins, and because of their faith, it was counted unto them for righteousness.
iwillgonow: Jesus' death on the cross, His blood, it was shed for Adam, Eve, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Daniel, Ester, Joseph....
iwillgonow: It fulfilled the sacrificial system.
iwillgonow: The Ultimate Sacrifice, pointed to for thousands of years by the symbolic lamb.
iwillgonow: They knew it.
iwillgonow: They knew that the Messiah would die for them, be their sacrifice.
iwillgonow: They had faith in it, and their sins were forgiven by Jesus' blood because of their faith.
iwillgonow: They commited sins first....
iwillgonow: ...they were forgiven second.
iwillgonow: You must commit a sin to be forgiven of it.
iwillgonow: Otherwise what shall you be forgiven of?
iwillgonow: You mind thinks?
psycho314t: my mind reels... so where does that leave us?
iwillgonow: Well, from Jesus on, sins were forgiven, we know this.
iwillgonow: Paul and other apostles forgave sins in the name of Jesus.
psycho314t: yeah...
psycho314t: wait.. no.. i didnt know that
iwillgonow: Well, let me check to make sure.
iwillgonow: Didn't see it explicitly, but this is besides the point.
iwillgonow: I remember Him telling Paul he could.
iwillgonow: Not of course of his own volition, but of God's inspiration.
iwillgonow: It's written that Jesus did all he did, and we shall do greater.
iwillgonow: But, back to the forgiveness of sin after Jesus died on the cross.
iwillgonow: Colo:1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
iwillgonow: Ephe:1:7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
iwillgonow: Jame:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
iwillgonow: 1John:1:9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
iwillgonow: Well, blood is a common theme, as is prayer.
iwillgonow: But, shall prayer alone, or blood alone, be all you need for the forgiveness of sins?
iwillgonow: The Old Testament was blood sacrifice with prayers of faith in Jesus.
iwillgonow: The New Testament is...?
psycho314t: the sacrifice of Jesus and promise of His return?
iwillgonow: What do you know of the Old Testament sacrificial system?
psycho314t: not much
iwillgonow: The priest of Israel, the High Priest, had to offer something to God to receive the forgiveness of sins for the people.
iwillgonow: It was the blood of the lamb.
iwillgonow: What is offered to God today?
psycho314t: nothing..? Jesus' death was the final sacrifice..
iwillgonow: Watch this:
iwillgonow: Hebr:2:17: Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
iwillgonow: Guess what Jesus Christ is right now.
iwillgonow: That's right, the High Priest of God.
psycho314t: uhmm... High Priest... ok...
psycho314t: High Priest offering Himself as the continual sacrifice for us..?
iwillgonow: Just as Israel had a high priest who communicated on behalf of the people to God, being their mediator, so does Jesus do for us today.
iwillgonow: You have no idea what you just said, Jennifer.
iwillgonow: A mystery unfathomable, you spoke without knowing, amazing.
iwillgonow: What blood can truely forgive sins???
iwillgonow: Is it cows?
iwillgonow: Lambs?
iwillgonow: Bulls?
iwillgonow: Pigeons?
iwillgonow: Rams?
psycho314t: yeah, i knew that already... Jesus is the way, truth, light, no one comes to the Father but thru Him.. and... wha? the blood of the Lamb..
iwillgonow: Only the blood of Jesus can truely actually forgive sins.
psycho314t: .. isnt that what i said a long time ago?
iwillgonow: The animal sacrifices only symbolized Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice, and the faith of those who obeyed this system was counted unto them for righteousness: Jesus' blood ratified their obedience through faith.
iwillgonow: But now, as a the High Priest, what does Jesus offer to forgive sins?
psycho314t: Himself?
iwillgonow: What of Himself?
psycho314t: His blood
iwillgonow: Which is the only thing in the Universe than can forgive sins.
iwillgonow: So, what are you saying, Jennifer??!!
psycho314t: i dont know! i thought i already said it, but u keep shooting me down, so i'm lost..
iwillgonow: Hebr:4:14: Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
iwillgonow: Hebr:5:1: For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
iwillgonow: And what can Jesus offer for the forgiveness of sins?
psycho314t: psycho314t: His blood
iwillgonow: This was Jesus: Hebr:5:10: Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
psycho314t: He's a High Priest, we've established that...
iwillgonow: Hebr:6:20: Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
iwillgonow: Hebr:7:1: For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
iwillgonow: Hebr:7:2: To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
iwillgonow: Hebr:7:3: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
iwillgonow: Who was it?
psycho314t: i don't know
iwillgonow: Hebr:7:25: Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
iwillgonow: Jesus.
psycho314t: if it was Jesus, why does it say being made like the Son of God..?
iwillgonow: Who else can fit the description of being without number of days, nor mother, etc...but Jesus?
psycho314t: no one... but i still dont get it
iwillgonow: Follow me to the summation, the point of the matter:
iwillgonow: Hebr:8:1: Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
iwillgonow: Hebr:8:2: A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
iwillgonow: Hebr:8:3: For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
iwillgonow: Jesus, our High Priest, who is in the Heavenly Sanctuary.
iwillgonow: Just as the Israelites made an earthly, it was in the image, a replica, of the one in Heaven.
psycho314t: ok..
iwillgonow: What does He offer in this Heavenly Sanctuary?
iwillgonow: High Priests must have something to offer.
iwillgonow: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
psycho314t: yeah, i saw that line.. and i'm still saying He's offering His blood
psycho314t: and you have yet to tell me if that's what you're after or not
psycho314t: if i'm missing the point, tell me. if i'm right, tell me. ur driving me nuts
iwillgonow: Hebr:9:11: But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
iwillgonow: Hebr:9:12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
iwillgonow: Hebr:9:13: For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
iwillgonow: Hebr:9:14: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
iwillgonow: Hebr:9:15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
iwillgonow: Hebr:9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
iwillgonow: You have said it.
iwillgonow: By Jesus' blood you are forgiven your sins.
psycho314t: you coulda said that a long time ago : |
iwillgonow: Today.
iwillgonow: What do you think?
psycho314t: about what part of it?
iwillgonow: Well, explain to me how it works.
psycho314t: its all symbolic.. the sacrifices on earth, the priests, the sanctuaries.. the sacrifice of Jesus, His place as High Priest, the heavenly sanctuary.. blood purifies everything, Jesus' blood sacrifice purifies us from our sins...
iwillgonow: Jesus is a real High Priest, the Heavenly Sanctuary is a real place, Jesus' blood is real and really does take away sin...these are not symbolic, they are literal, with meaning.
psycho314t: everything on earth was symbolic of everything real in heaven
psycho314t: food, bbiab
iwillgonow: But the cross does not forgive you today...
psycho314t: back..
iwillgonow: K.
iwillgonow: My last post was to re-affirm we didn't go through all that just to get back to where we started.
iwillgonow: The cross is not the answer.
iwillgonow: But Jesus' blood is.
psycho314t: ok, i get it.. but i did say blood from the very beginning : \
iwillgonow: Jesus gives, Jesus sheds His blood daily, in the Heavenly Sanctuary, for the remission of sins commited during the day.
iwillgonow: So are your sins forgiven today.
iwillgonow: Not of the cross, which was 2 thousand years ago.
iwillgonow: Else you'd be "executed for murder before you commit it."
psycho314t: yeah, i know...
iwillgonow: But do you understand, do you believe?
iwillgonow: The earthly sanctuary modeled after the Heavenly, the proceedures modeled after the Heavenly...
iwillgonow: The Old Testament ordinances of animal sacrifices pass away, and in its place the true thing, not a symbol of it, is established, with Jesus as the Ultimate High Priest who gives His blood to truely forgive your sins on a daily basis, after they are commited.
psycho314t: Hebr:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebr:9:28: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
iwillgonow: Once offered to bear the sins of those who in faith held to the promise of a coming Messiah, who would be their sacrifice for the remission of their sins.
iwillgonow: The animals they killed did not forgive their sins.
iwillgonow: But it was counted up to them for righteousness by their faith in Jesus, who when He died once for those many, used His blood in the Heavenly sanctuary, and cleasnsed them of all the sins they were accounted for by their faith.
iwillgonow: Hebr:12:24: And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
iwillgonow: Jesus mediates for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary daily, sprinkling His blood to forgive our sins, which is better than the animal sacrificial blood done of those such as Abel.
iwillgonow: This is the New Covenant.
iwillgonow: The Old Covenant was with the blood of animals.
iwillgonow: The New, with the sin-forgiving blood of Jesus.
iwillgonow: And another example of Jesus' sprinkling His blood for us: 1Pet:1:2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
iwillgonow: Sprinkling is present tense, and this was after the cross, much after.
psycho314t: ok, yeah, the tense is what i was looking for..
iwillgonow: This works, it fits the "types" or examples that symbolized such long before.
iwillgonow: And it works because this way, you are forgiven your sins after you commit them, not 2000 years ago when you did not exist, nor have any sins to forgive.
iwillgonow: In the earthly sanctuary, you had to sin to be forgiven by the sacrifice.
iwillgonow: Same in the Heavenly.
psycho314t: ya..
iwillgonow: That's such a huge reason why "forgiven at the cross" is wrong. It is Catholic in nature, saying you can be forgiven before you do wrong, which is fundamentally illogical and without sense.
iwillgonow: You might as well pray for killing your mom tomorrow, today. That's outrageous.
psycho314t: my reasoning when i said it was counting paid for with the blood, and asking for forgiveness as two separate things
iwillgonow: You'll have to explain.
psycho314t: you showed me a verse that was talking about sacrifice and prayer, right? one is ineffective without the other?
psycho314t: makes them sound separate..
iwillgonow: In our time or their time?
iwillgonow: NT or OT?
psycho314t: i'm not sure, i hadn't made the distinction at that point
iwillgonow: They've always been together.
iwillgonow: One had to pray to have the sacrifice eaten by fire from Heaven.
iwillgonow: Now, one has to pray for Jesus to forgive their sins by His blood, and then He does.
psycho314t: iwillgonow: Colo:1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

: iwillgonow: Ephe:1:7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;; iwillgonow: Jame:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.; iwillgonow: 1John:1:9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.; iwillgonow: Well, blood is a common theme, as is prayer.; iwillgonow: But, shall prayer alone, or blood alone, be all you need for the forgiveness of sins?

iwillgonow: The answer is no, you must have both.
iwillgonow: I didn't finish that by telling you?
psycho314t: you showed me that after what i said to begin with (blood at the cross, asking for forgiveness now), but it fit with my reasoning when i said it... yeah, and that still fits tho. you must have both.. my reasoning was basically that the sacrifice was taken care of then, but in order for it to be complete you still hafta ask for forgiveness now
iwillgonow: How shall the blood of Jesus forgive your sins if you do not ask for it (pray for it)?
psycho314t: , but in order for it to be complete you still hafta ask for forgiveness now
iwillgonow: My exact idea is that you must pray (ask) for your sins to be forgiven. If you sacrificed and didn't pray, no fire would come to take the sacrifice.
iwillgonow: Today, Jesus will not shed His blood for you if you do not ask (pray) for it.
iwillgonow: The blood forgives the sin, you have to ask for it.
psycho314t: i don't know, i'm just trying to explain where i was coming from to begin with... but i do understand all the stuff from hebrews w/ the heavenly sanctuary & the continual sacrifice..
iwillgonow: What do you need clarification on regarding the current New Covenant, the New and Living Way?
psycho314t: i dont think i do, its just... i dunno... like i said, i understand it, it just conflicts w/ what i was always taught, so its weird... our studies were always that Christ died on the cross for our sins... no mention of anything more than that..
iwillgonow: Why did Jesus die?
psycho314t: to pay for our sins
psycho314t: or.. see? that response is habitual. but no, its... to pay for the sins of those in the old testament?
iwillgonow: To ratify the Old Covenant sins, by becoming worthy to administer His perfect blood in the Heavenly sanctuary for the remission of sins past.
iwillgonow: And from then on, to be our High Priest who sprinkles His blood, not animal blood, to forgive our sins everyday.
iwillgonow: Because from then on His blood was able to forgive sins.
iwillgonow: It was worthy in God's eyes.
iwillgonow: Because of His perfect life.
iwillgonow: And with His blood worthy to forgive sins, He truely forgave all those who had believed in His coming by obeying the sacrificial system, as was the covenant of their time.
psycho314t: yeah..
iwillgonow: Since the animals' blood couldn't forgive them really. Hey, God isn't about witchcraft!
psycho314t: heh, that's a good point too..

06/16/01

iwillgonow: Tell me how the Tabernacle worked.
jello13091: Well, I'm not sure if I understand it. When it came down to individual sinners, they would transfer their sin onto their sacrifice which would either be burned or eaten by the Preist.
iwillgonow: Priest.
jello13091: I read about what the Priest wore.
jello13091: Sorry.
iwillgonow: Kephod, all that?
jello13091: Yeah, and the stones on the breastplate with the 12 tribes on it.
jello13091: And how it was only Aaron and his family that was righteous enough.
psycho314t: back
iwillgonow: No, Aaron and his family were the chosen ones to do the priesthood.
jello13091: Ok.
jello13091: That was it then.
jello13091: And that the shewbread symbolized man's dependence on God for temporal and spiritual food and that it's only recieved through the mediation of Jesus (PP 354)
iwillgonow: Well let's talk about the earthly sanctuary.
jello13091: The high priest was the only one who could look at the inner apartment of the sanctuary.
psycho314t: which chapter were we reading last week?
iwillgonow: Which inner apartment?
jello13091: The very inner one.
psycho314t: which chapter in p&p is about the tabernacle?
jello13091: Chapter 30
psycho314t: thanx
jello13091: When Jesus goes into the Heavenly temple as the High Priest, does He wear the same robes that the earthly high priest wore?
iwillgonow: I don't know.
iwillgonow: http://www.Jesusone.com/biblestudies/thetableofshowbread.htm
jello13091: So the shewbread isn't anywhere in the Old Testament?
iwillgonow: That's not what it's saying.
iwillgonow: It's saying it is only in two places in the New Testament.
iwillgonow: I'm deep, halfway, into this study.
iwillgonow: And it says good things you should understand.
jello13091: Oh ok.
iwillgonow: Many wonder how we get accurate information from the types. Some think we must just make up the explanations as we go along. In this study I want to show some details of how to search the scriptures. We will walk through this study detail by detail.
jello13091: When there is no more sin, will there still need to be the sanctuary system?
iwillgonow: Not to forgive sin, just thinking logically, there.
iwillgonow: Well, now I know what the word "Shewbread" means in an exact translation of the several Hebrew words used to describe it.
iwillgonow: From our word study we can combine the various word meanings to form a phrase that will contain a composite of all the meanings. We can now say: We must appear before His presence with great reverence, to inquire of Him personally, and to meet at His mouth to see what He will say to us, to meet with Him face to face to hear His voice and receive our food and feed on Him.
iwillgonow: That was a good article.
jello13091: Not done yet.
psycho314t: me neither
iwillgonow: Finish up while I look for some pictures of the sanctuary.
iwillgonow: http://www.tagnet.org/cyberspace/Lessons/Truth-30/trut2-30.html Read this entire page to understand what was abolished/fulfilled at the cross, and what was always in effect; read to understand the difference between the 2 laws.
jello13091: I'm still not done yet.
iwillgonow: Come back to that later, then.
jello13091: Why? Can't we finish so that we understand and then move on?
iwillgonow: NO, I meant come back to that link i JUST PASTED later, so you can finish what you're doing!
jello13091: Oh!!! Just slow down!
iwillgonow: I'm just leaving links of good things I read as I search for a picture of the earthly sanctuary.
jello13091: Ok
jello13091: Every priest who ministered in the holy Place had to have the blood applied to the right ear, the right thumb, and the big toe of the right foot.
jello13091: Why?
iwillgonow: Symbolized a cleansing of the things that are central to hearing, using the hand, and walking.
jello13091: Oh, I see.
iwillgonow: Is it really taking this long to get through one article?
psycho314t: i'm almost done with it.. im sick & my brain is fuzzy
jello13091: Almost done also.
iwillgonow: Sick?
psycho314t: yeah, a cold or something...
jello13091: So does circumcision and baptism fall under ceremonial or moral?
iwillgonow: What did they say?
jello13091: It just kept saying the Ten Commandments as moral.
iwillgonow: The Bible says circumcision availeth nothing. Only the circumcision of the heart is worth anything.
jello13091: And then I guess towards the end, it leaned towards circumcision as being ceremonial.
iwillgonow: And for baptism, "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN."
jello13091: Ok.
psycho314t: melchizedec still confuses me.. did Jesus just come down to earth for awhile in order to create that shadow of Himself, and then ascend again..?
iwillgonow: Yes, His coming down as Melchizedec was to show His everlasting role as a High Priest.
jello13091: Hold on....explain that, 'cause I have no idea what y'all are talking about.
psycho314t: he was a priest with no beginning, no ending, no parents... talked about in hebrews, i think
iwillgonow: Who physically met Abraham and received tithes.
psycho314t: talked about there, but he lived before Christ
psycho314t: abraham, i couldnt remember who it was
psycho314t: abraham gave Him the tithes of... his battle spoils or something?
iwillgonow: Yup.
psycho314t: Jesus Christ is also a priest after the order of Melchizedec and holds His priesthood forever.
jello13091: There's a litte picture of possibly the sanctuary in another one of those lesson things.
iwillgonow: Yeah, but a small picture that's not defined.
jello13091: Ok.
jello13091: What is the mercy seat?
iwillgonow: The golden covering over the Ark of the Covenant, which on either side has the covering Cherubims.
jello13091: Ok.

07/20/01

psycho314t: where's the stuff about the daily sprinkling of blood? in hebrews?
iwillgonow: Hebrews, Romans, everywhere.
psycho314t: brb
psycho314t: find it in romans for me, plz? i know she's going to want more than just hebrews...
iwillgonow: You preaching to your g-ma?
psycho314t: yup
iwillgonow: Hebr:8:6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
iwillgonow: Most of what I can find quickly is in Hebrews.
psycho314t: she tried to give me the 'when Jesus was crucified, He was the sacrifice for our sins, all sins, past and future, and the temple drapes were rent in twain, making the sacrifices and the law of the covenant in the ark not apply to us"
psycho314t: yeah, ive got stuff in hebrews...
psycho314t: but im sure that wont be enough for her
iwillgonow: Use common sense, Jennifer.
iwillgonow: A powerful tool.
iwillgonow: Are we catholic grandma?
iwillgonow: Then why do you say our sins were forgiven before we committed them?
psycho314t: most religions believe the crucifixion took care of ALL sins
iwillgonow: Just use common sense, you don't have to be too profound. Say what caught your attention when I talked to you.
psycho314t: like.. if it was forgiven at the cross, why would we have to repent now?
psycho314t: alright.. brb again
iwillgonow: And if you use specifics, talk about the verse that says Jesus must have something to offer, so what does He offer in the heavenly sanctuary then?
psycho314t: and something else that just hit me.. if everything about the earthly sanctuary was a shadow of the heavenly things.. why wouldnt the sacrifices be as well?
iwillgonow: Jesus IS the sacrifice in heaven. Hebr:10:29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
iwillgonow: Cross was a sanctification. Period.
psycho314t: <sigh>
iwillgonow: If she ain't gonna believe, she ain't gonna believe.
iwillgonow: Your job is to try and pray.
iwillgonow: God's job is to convert the heart or not.
psycho314t: she pulled out a different translation that changed all the 'sprinkling' to 'sprinkled'
iwillgonow: OH MAN.
iwillgonow: Now I know the King James Bible is the only non-corrupted version.
iwillgonow: They have taken Jesus and done away with Him.
iwillgonow: He no longer forgives our sins.
psycho314t: "and dont try to tell me theres anything wrong with the translation. it's just put into wording we can understand."
iwillgonow: ....
iwillgonow: Jennifer, anyone knows the FIRST translation is the BEST translation because there is less possibility for errors.
psycho314t: i said that
iwillgonow: She said...?
psycho314t: i said "something is lost every time its translated again" "you're confused. take this translation and it will help you understand."
psycho314t: i gave it back to her and left : \
psycho314t: i understood plenty about that translation as soon as she read the word "sprinkled"
iwillgonow: Check the tense on blueletterbible.
iwillgonow: It's present progressive.
psycho314t: i told her about blueletter.. how it helps to check the words in the kjv (which she says is too hard to understand) against their origins.. "theyre origins are greek, that will only confuse you more!" and she wouldnt stop saying that, she said it over and over when i tried to explain it better...
iwillgonow: Greek is not hard to translate.
psycho314t: i tried to use "priest after the order of melchisidek" to coincide with the Mediator thing, and therefore sprinkling of blood for our sins.. "he wasnt a priest, and isnt a priest. that means that He had the same power over the people that a priest like melchisidek did."
psycho314t: of course, she doesnt believe melchisidek was Jesus.. "some people think that, but we know better."
psycho314t: ) the post, rank, or position which one holds in civic or other affairs
psycho314t: ^^ blue letter for "order"
iwillgonow: No, I meant check "sprinkling" for tense.
iwillgonow: It's not past tense.
psycho314t: which she claims means power in general.. yeah, i know, but i was going to check order against her argument
psycho314t: sprinkling means sprinkling
psycho314t: 1) a sprinkling (purification)
1a) blood of sprinkling
1a1) i.e. appointed for sprinkling (serving to purify)
iwillgonow: Not the concordance meaning.
iwillgonow: The tense.
psycho314t: ...?
iwillgonow: It's in a box across from the word.
iwillgonow: Far right.
psycho314t: oh.. there isnt one
iwillgonow: Sometimes that happens, I guess.