trinity: biblical or not?
06/29/02
[14:49] <Vicerant> Do we believe in the trinity doctrine?
[14:51] <Jello13091> there is God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit, but we dont believe that one is all three, correct?
[14:51] <Vicerant> You tell me.
[14:51] <Jello13091> i just did
[14:51] <Vicerant> No you didn't, you asked me.
[14:51] <Jello13091> Jesus is God, but they are two, not the same being
[14:52] <Vicerant> I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're saying.
[14:52] <Vicerant> (This question was a yes or no answer question)
[14:52] <clumsyraine> no
[14:52] <Jello13091> no
[14:52] <Vicerant> Correct!
[14:52] <Vicerant> Wow, that took a long time.
[14:52] <clumsyraine> now we get to explain it
[14:52] <Jello13091> :P
[14:52] <clumsyraine> i bet
[14:52] <Jello13091> haha
[14:52] <Jello13091> i just did
[14:53] <Jello13091> sort of...!
[14:53] <clumsyraine> ahaa
[14:53] <clumsyraine> er
[14:53] <clumsyraine> haha
[14:53] <Vicerant> It wouldn't be necessary if I even could begin to imagine the thought of Julie remotely starting to understand what her position is. :))
[14:53] <Jello13091> :P
[14:53] <Vicerant> You see, this should be a "gimmie question." But apparently it's not.
[14:53] <Vicerant> Sadly so.
[14:54] <Vicerant> What is the trinity, and why do we not believe in it?
[14:54] <Jello13091> because it makes all there things one
[14:54] <clumsyraine> the trinity is the idea that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the 3 beings that make up the godhead
[14:54] <Jello13091> that would make God, His wn son
[14:54] <Jello13091> God would be God and God would be God's son
[14:54] <Vicerant> Incorrect Jennifer.
[14:54] <clumsyraine> not beings
[14:54] <clumsyraine> 3 parts of God
[14:55] <Vicerant> Incorrect still.
[14:55] <Vicerant> Dear dear dear....and they mock me asking such a simple question...
[14:55] <clumsyraine> :|
[14:55] <Jello13091> what about my answer
[14:55] <clumsyraine> and i grew up believing in it....
[14:55] <Vicerant> You are just goofy, Julie.
[14:55] <clumsyraine> lol!
[14:55] <Jello13091> haha
[14:56] <Jello13091> no, i'm serius
[14:56] <Jello13091> you told me that once
[14:56] <Vicerant> The trinity doctrine states that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one single being.
[14:56] <Vicerant> Not "parts" of God.
[14:56] <Vicerant> Not a "godhead."
[14:56] <Jello13091> see, i said that!
[14:56] <Vicerant> ONE THING.
[14:56] <Jello13091> all three one
[14:57] <Jello13091> I SAID THAT@!
[14:57] <Vicerant> And that is not correct.
[14:57] <Jello13091> i know
[14:57] <Vicerant> Jesus is Jesus, God the Father is God the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
[14:57] <Jello13091> i said that also
[14:57] <Jello13091> that they aren't one
[14:57] <Jello13091> I KNOW!
[14:57] <Vicerant> They are not the same "person."
[14:57] <Jello13091> ahhhhhhhhhh
[14:57] <Jello13091> OI SAID THAT!
[14:57] <Jello13091> DUH
[14:57] <Vicerant> You're so goofy Julie.
[14:57] <Jello13091> :D
[14:57] <Jello13091> i said that did i not jen?
[14:58] <Jello13091> i meant to say three and not there before
[14:58] <clumsyraine> uhh....
[14:58] <clumsyraine> im not sure what you said :)
[14:58] <Jello13091> <Jello13091> there is God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit, but we dont believe that one is all three, correct?
[14:58] <Vicerant> Those three seperate persons are ONE IN PURPOSE/MIND/INTENTION/CHARACTER, but not in being; they are not one in such a way that all three of them are actually the same person. They are individuals.
[14:58] <Jello13091> <Jello13091> Jesus is God, but they are two, not the same being
[14:58] <Jello13091> <Jello13091> because it makes all there things one
[14:58] <Jello13091> <Jello13091> that would make God, His wn son
[14:59] <Jello13091> <Jello13091> God would be God and God would be God's son
[14:59] <Vicerant> Julie, you are just confusingly goofy, ok?
[14:59] <Jello13091> NO!
[14:59] <Jello13091> i said that
[14:59] <Vicerant> Now listen up:
[14:59] <Jello13091> i understood that
[14:59] <Jello13091> i knew that!
[14:59] <Vicerant> Jesus prayed to God. He didn't pray to himself. If you believe in the trinity, he prayed to himself.
[15:00] <Vicerant> Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to comfort in his place. If you believe in the trinity, Jesus sent himself in place of himself.
[15:00] <Vicerant> God spoke to Jesus and said "this is my son in whom I am well pleased." If you believe in the trinity, God spoke to himself and was pleased with himself.
[15:00] <Jello13091> buzz buzz buzz
[15:00] <Jello13091> i knew!
[15:00] <Jello13091> yeeah
[15:01] <Jello13091> and if God was His own son.....
[15:01] <clumsyraine> in hebrews, he would have been talking to himself and saying he was his own god
[15:01] <Vicerant> Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one even as he is one with the Father. If you believe in the trinity, the disciples suddenly became 12 "Johns," or 12 "matthews," but no longer seperate individual people.
[15:01] <Jello13091> yes yes yes
[15:01] <Jello13091> yes
[15:02] <Jello13091> we get it!
[15:02] <Jello13091> ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
[15:02] <Vicerant> So the correct understanding of the "oneness" between Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God the Father is WHAT, THEN, IF YOU'RE SO SMART??
[15:03] <Jello13091> Jesus is His Son....they are three separate beings
[15:03] <Vicerant> Errr, wrong, sorry, did not answer the question.
[15:03] <Jello13091> isnt the Holy Spirit what is given by God or Jesus
[15:03] <Jello13091> ?
[15:03] <Jello13091> i'm not as clear on the Holy Spirit
[15:03] <clumsyraine> God the father is God. God the father gave his son Jesus the power to be a god as well
[15:03] <Vicerant> Guess you're not so smart then, huh?
[15:04] <Vicerant> Children, you're not answering the question. Read the question. What is the question asking? Answer the question.
[15:04] <clumsyraine> and im not very clear on the Holy Spirit either
[15:04] <Jello13091> I dont understand your question
[15:04] <Vicerant> So the correct understanding of the "oneness" between Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God the Father is WHAT, THEN, IF YOU'RE SO SMART??
[15:04] <clumsyraine> the oneness is that they have the same ... aargh, i cant think of the word
[15:04] <clumsyraine> uve told us
[15:04] <Vicerant> I answered this question earlier, to make matters worse for the both of you, since you STILL CAN'T ANSWER IT.
[15:05] <Jello13091> Those three seperate persons are ONE IN PURPOSE/MIND/INTENTION/CHARACTER, but not in being; they are not one in such a way that all three of them are actually the same person. They are individuals.
[15:05] <Vicerant> Yay. Wasn't that easy? Was supposed to be. X(
[15:05] <Jello13091> Not the same person
[15:05] <clumsyraine> PURPOSE!
[15:05] <clumsyraine> thats the word i was trying for X|
[15:05] <Jello13091> we knew that
[15:05] <Jello13091> you just weren't clear :))
[15:06] <Vicerant> So were the apostles all 12 "matthews?" Or were they all 12 of the same likemindedness, even as Jesus has the same likemindedness as the Father?
[15:06] <clumsyraine> likeminded
[15:06] <Vicerant> Exactly, their "oneness" became their united purpose/mindset.
[15:06] <Vicerant> Just like Jesus and God.
[15:06] <Vicerant> That is not the same as being 12 matthews.
[15:07] <Vicerant> Is Julie Jacob?
[15:07] <Jello13091> i hope not
[15:07] <Vicerant> No, of course not. We're not the same person.
[15:07] <Vicerant> But we are united, likeminded, the same purpose: we are one even as Jesus is one with God.
[15:08] <Vicerant> But we are not two Jacobs.
[15:08] <Vicerant> What is the Holy Spirit?
[15:08] <Jello13091> dont know
[15:08] <Jello13091> the presence of God on us?
[15:09] <clumsyraine> its a nonphysical presence of God...
[15:10] <clumsyraine> its like a messenger, isnt it?
[15:10] <clumsyraine> not a god
[15:10] <clumsyraine> i cant remember...
[15:10] * Vicerant slaps the both of you who don't know something so important as the identity of the Holy Spirit!
[15:11] <Jello13091> :|
[15:11] <clumsyraine> ;\
[15:11] <Jello13091> uh hi, i was raised Jewish
[15:11] <Vicerant> Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.
[15:11] <Jello13091> i ddint know Jesus but you didnt slap me around then!
[15:11] <Jello13091> yeah, thought that
[15:11] <Vicerant> The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.
[15:12] <Vicerant> The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."
[15:12] <Jello13091> brb
[15:12] <Vicerant> The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.
[15:13] <Vicerant> We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, that the Lord God is our keeper, and helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind.
[15:14] <Vicerant> The Godhead is Biblical, not the trinity.
[15:14] <Jello13091> back
[15:14] <Vicerant> The three individuals that compose it are God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
[15:15] <Vicerant> All three are divine, seperate, living persons.
[15:15] <Vicerant> That's how Jesus didn't send himself, he sent God's spirit, even his spirit, the Holy Spirit, to be the comfortor while he is gone.
[15:16] <Jello13091> uh
[15:17] <Vicerant> So the Holy Spirit is a living person, just like God, just like Jesus. He thinks. He lives. He moves. He's not some unthinking, non-living force energy.
[15:17] <Vicerant> He is, of course, a spirit.
[15:17] <Jello13091> yeah
[15:17] <Vicerant> Like a ghost.
[15:17] <Vicerant> No form. No body. No flesh.
[15:18] <clumsyraine> hey, i said nonphysical :P
[15:18] <Vicerant> Although perhaps a form, because EgW says even God the Father, who is spirit, has a definite shape and form upon his throne.
[15:18] <Vicerant> But he does not have a human body.
[15:19] <Vicerant> Do we pray to him?
[15:19] <Vicerant> Do we pray to the Holy Spirit?
[15:20] <Vicerant> X(
[15:20] <Vicerant> ANSWER!
[15:20] <clumsyraine> we pray to god in the name of Jesus
