women: what roles do women play in the Bible?

02/02/01

thisissoslow: These guys in the chatroom are just arguing now, this stinks, need a topic again.
psycho314t: i have one my youth group has been debating lately.. dunno how much they'd go for it tho
thisissoslow: What is it?
psycho314t: the role of women in leading the church, either as a whole or like, leading a youth group
thisissoslow: Ah...I have something for you then.
psycho314t: our youth minister moved to calvary baptist in lubbock at the end of december, so we're searching for a new youth minister.. so we've been talking alot over the qualifications for the job, and alot of ppl have been arguing over whether its a female's place or not
thisissoslow: http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/chrwoman.html
thisissoslow: Go, read, learn.
psycho314t: heh.... 1 Timothy 2:11-12 A Most Difficult Scripture
Perhaps the most important verses used to argue against the active participation of women in spiritual fellowship are found in I Timothy 2:11-12: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
psycho314t: that scripture has been the primary cause of the arguments
thisissoslow: Read the true meaning
thisissoslow: Anything interesting?
psycho314t: grr.. if ppl would leave me alone so i could read it all at once... not u.. but everyone else kept messaging me... i think reading it w/ all the interference confused me even more
psycho314t: lemme read thru it again..
thisissoslow: Concentrate...
psycho314t: i know.. multi-tasking isnt my strong suit
psycho314t: ok, so.. basically, women can teach lessons but not be in any permanent leadership role, right?
thisissoslow: Lemme check.
psycho314t: These Scriptures make it very clear that God never intended that a wife continuously pastor, shepherd or minister to a local congregation. To do so would violate the prohibition against teaching her husband continuously! However, these Scriptures should not be used to forbid a wife to teach men, including her husband, on an intermittent basis, as she is moved by God to do so. If doing so were forbidden by God's law, no marriage would ever survive!
thisissoslow: These Scriptures make it very clear that God never intended that a wife continuously pastor, shepherd or minister to a local congregation. To do so would violate the prohibition against teaching her husband continuously! However, these Scriptures should not be used to forbid a wife to teach men, including her husband, on an intermittent basis, as she is moved by God to do so. If doing so were forbidden by God's law, no marriage would ever survive!
psycho314t: heh... yup
thisissoslow: That must be the synopsis.
thisissoslow: Women are equal, this is debated alos.
thisissoslow: This piece affirms their equality.
psycho314t: yeah.. i shouldve read from the bottom up : \ it wouldve made more sense that way
psycho314t: yup.. it said that somewhere lese
psycho314t: else
thisissoslow: They simply weren't given the leadership role in the family, but worth as much as a man? Yes.
psycho314t: right.. and so the role in the family is equivalent to the role in the church?
thisissoslow: That would be a logical parallel.
thisissoslow: Here's something that ever since I was told it, it just made common sense...
psycho314t: ok... i need to print that out... you wouldnt imagine how many of the youth have gotten completely disgusted with our teachers for trying to explain this to us... but they never quite got it as plain as that site
thisissoslow: Women was made from the rib of the man, not the skull or foot, which is to say that women are equal, not above or below man. Just made sense to me, I guess.
psycho314t: hey.. yeah, it does, actually...
thisissoslow: Made from the side, to stand beside man, a partner...
psycho314t: yeah...
psycho314t: aargh, i cant print.. my printer stinks
thisissoslow: Apparently God puts man in the decision/leadership/authority role, but the equality remains, like a business partnership, with two equal investors, one making the final decision, the other playing his part...what did it say the role of women is? bummer
psycho314t: i'm looking for something i know i read on that page... i just hafta find it again...
thisissoslow: The role of childbearing was biologically reserved for the wife from the very beginning. The role of fathering and leadership in the family was reserved for the husband from the very beginning. Paul argues that this is so for the sake of the children. Thus when husbands and wives are interacting at home, in an assembly, or anywhere else, the position of the husband as the natural head of the family should not be undermined! For, as Paul argues, this natural relationship is in accordance with God's ordained order in creation.
thisissoslow: This makes it easier to understand that the male hold authority in those specific matters cited, meaning a women could go shopping, cash checks, without like having her husband there to talk for her or something.
thisissoslow: The order of creation thing makes sense, too. God before angels, angels before man, man before women...ranked in order who was made first.
thisissoslow: Course God wasn't made.
thisissoslow: That's why He's on top. :-D
thisissoslow: Did your printer eat you?
thisissoslow: You ought to feed it more, would keep its appetite down.
psycho314t: yeah.. society has sorta corrupted the women's equality thing... when you think equal, (well, maybe not you... it's drilled into women more i guess) you automatically tend to think equal everything... including equal roles in everything... but when you really think about it.... heh, no, my mind is eating me tho... you made me totally lose my train of thought : P too much thinking after midnight...
thisissoslow: Hahaha!!!
thisissoslow: Lose of conscious thought ability.
psycho314t: aargh... i have no idea where i was trying to go w/ that whole bit of rambling up there...
thisissoslow: I got it.
psycho314t: heh... you mind telling me?
thisissoslow: Women think of equality incorrectly, if what we've read is correct. They would like to assume the male authority in home/church matters, which is against God's natural order of creation.
psycho314t: yeahhh... you got it better than i did, and it was my point :P
psycho314t: "The truth is that in Christianity women became free and equal to their husbands. Nevertheless, there was always a danger that they might take this freedom beyond the limitations that God had placed when He appointed man as head over woman in the marital relationship" <== thats what i was looking for earlier... altho i dont remember why now...
thisissoslow: Ah, good.
psycho314t: it sorta confused me there... is it differentiating women's free/equal role in christianity from their role in marriage...?
thisissoslow: Have to read the context, where's that quote at?
psycho314t: oh, wait.. i think i get it... there's that other verse that goes along w/ that... which i will now hafta go hunt down....
psycho314t: the quote right above the "The Christian Marital Relationship and the Gospel of Jesus Christ" section
thisissoslow: k
psycho314t: but i think i get it... all of what we were just reading about was talking about the role of woman v. man in the marital/teaching relationship... but thats just talking about christianity in general... and... aaaargh where was that verse...
psycho314t: where's my bible...? i need to clean this room <: (
psycho314t: oh yeah... right under my nose, where it always is
thisissoslow: Haha, I can't loose mine, it's on computer.:-D
psycho314t: yeah, i saw that : \ lucky..
thisissoslow: And it has search engine!
thisissoslow: Cause I only remember key words, that helps lot.
psycho314t: oh, ur kidding me... as many times in the past month as we've flipped back to that verse in the trying to argue women's equality... and i cant remember where it is..........
thisissoslow: Haha.
psycho314t: heh... yeah, i know, same here... i was in bible drill for 6 years... i can recite the books of the bible in 30 seconds or less, but all the scriptures we learned are pretty much out of my head...
psycho314t: ok, this is making me angry. use ur search engine... wait.. is it kjv..?
psycho314t: but no.. all the keywords just flew out of my head too.....
psycho314t: AARGH
thisissoslow: Yup
psycho314t: search "male nor female"
psycho314t: maybe
thisissoslow: Me or you
psycho314t: hmm?
psycho314t: !!! found it
psycho314t: galations 6:226-29
psycho314t: 6:26-29
psycho314t: ... i still cant type
psycho314t: chapter 3
psycho314t: verses 26-29
thisissoslow: cool
thisissoslow: Whaszit say?
psycho314t: so you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.. and all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like Him... there is no longer jew or gentile, slave or free, male or female.. for you are all christians, one in Christ Jesus... ^-- fits into the equal in christianity part of the quote i pasted earlier
thisissoslow: Yeah, in heaven the abosolute equality Adam and Eve had in the garden of Eden will be re-established.
psycho314t: yup
thisissoslow: Probably because there won't be any more ministry, and the head of everybody won't be a human.
psycho314t: this is true..
iwillgonow: Women are good.
psycho314t: haha.. well, ive always thought so : P
iwillgonow: I haven't.
iwillgonow: Unfortunately.
iwillgonow: I was brought up with women as inferiors.
psycho314t: yeah.. most males dont
psycho314t: there havent been males in my household as long as i can remember, so i never had to really see anything other than women in dominant roles..
iwillgonow: My religion taught it.
iwillgonow: Many do.
iwillgonow: I liked feeling "better" then women, and then again, I didn't, even back then.
psycho314t: yeah..
psycho314t: everyone likes being superior, to some degree
iwillgonow: They were made equal, that is not disputed.
iwillgonow: At the fall,
iwillgonow: well, let's read it for ourself.
iwillgonow: Gene:3:16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
psycho314t: yup, i was just reading that verse..
iwillgonow: 08669 t@shuwqah {tesh-oo-kaw'}
from 07783 in the original sense of stretching out after;
TWOT - 2352a; n f
AV - desire 3; 3

1) desire, longing, craving

iwillgonow: So women crave, long for men.

iwillgonow: Lemme look up "rule over thee."

iwillgonow: 04910 mashal {maw-shal'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1259; v

AV - rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4, ruled over 2, power 2, indeed 1; 81

1) to rule, have dominion, reign
1a) (Qal) to rule, have dominion
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to cause to rule

1b2) to exercise dominion
iwillgonow: Well, this isn't convincing of women's equality.
psycho314t: heh.. not really...
iwillgonow: We need help, back to that section on women in biblestudy.org
iwillgonow: Where's that section you found that is just about women, not their role in the church?
psycho314t: nah, it was the other way around.. more specific instead of less... it was like, the role of women specifically in ministry
iwillgonow: oh
psycho314t: theres one verse i noticed last week... if i remember right, it sorta goes for equality...
psycho314t: grr.. i cant find it
psycho314t: well, this ones not what i was looking for, but its close... galations 3:7
psycho314t: err
psycho314t: no
psycho314t: 1 peter 3:7
iwillgonow: 1Pet:3:7: Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
iwillgonow: Weaker vessel?
psycho314t: erm... new living translation: "... she may be weaker than you are, but she is your eqal partner in God's gift of new life.."
psycho314t: equal*
iwillgonow: Yes, "heirs together" does signify an equality, in that they both receive the same.
iwillgonow: 1Pet:3:6: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
iwillgonow: But look at this.
iwillgonow: This subject is still difficult.
iwillgonow: Are we going to your church tomorrow?
psycho314t: yeah, it is... and no, i dont think so : \
iwillgonow: Ok
psycho314t: try for next week?
iwillgonow: I'll search for women, and see what come's up... alright.
psycho314t: the verse im thinking of said something about... in marriage, the man & woman become as one.. so the man should love the woman as he loves himself... it doesnt quite state equality either, tho, so i dunno..
iwillgonow: I know what you're talking about.
iwillgonow: Gene:2:24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
psycho314t: ya, similar to that, but that wasnt it.. im almost positive it was towards the end of the new testament
iwillgonow: Deut:22:5: The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.
iwillgonow: Interesting
iwillgonow: I'm still looking for something relevant to our subject.
psycho314t: doh.. im dumb. i dog-eared the page but forgot.. haha.. cross-dressing bad, eh?
iwillgonow: yup
psycho314t: but yeah... go look at ephesians 5:21 & following
psycho314t: still not really equal, but.. something more than just plain subservience, at least....
iwillgonow: That was a "man is the leader/decision maker/head of all things over women" verse.
psycho314t: yeah.. equal in love tho
iwillgonow: Ephe:5:28: So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
psycho314t: thats about all we seem to be finding... everything will mention various unequalities, and maybe one semi-equality... or is that just how its appearing to me?
iwillgonow: It is saying that men are the head, they are above, in all ways...
iwillgonow: Just as Christ is above all.
iwillgonow: In all ways.
iwillgonow: ...
iwillgonow: Doesn't feel right.
iwillgonow: Didn't back then, doesn't now.
psycho314t: no, it doesnt..
iwillgonow: If you love your wife as yourself, you would treat her equally, as you would treat yourself.
psycho314t: yeah, thats how i was seeing it..
iwillgonow: But, just as women being made from the rib makes them equal, the fact that man was made before women is also there.
iwillgonow: The "order of creation."
iwillgonow: God above Jesus above man above women.
psycho314t: yeah... reminds me of debates over genesis 1:27
iwillgonow: Gene:1:27: So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
psycho314t: God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male & female created He them...
iwillgonow: Women was not created yet, at this verse.
iwillgonow: It is a common misconception that women were created during creation, but they were not.
psycho314t: it was one of the first verses we studied in bible drill.. and i think we had our instructor go over it prolly 20 times... cuz it seems to be saying God created man & woman, but only man was in His own image...
iwillgonow: Woman was created in........WAIT!
iwillgonow: The way this is worded...it is important somehow...
iwillgonow: It is past tense...no way...this is amazing.
iwillgonow: It is a reflection on the sixth day.
iwillgonow: Like a "P.S. Here's how women came to be."
iwillgonow: Follow this:
Gene:2:1: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
iwillgonow: Gene:2:2: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
iwillgonow: Gene:2:3: And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
iwillgonow: Gene:2:4: These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
iwillgonow: Gene:2:5: And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. Gene:2:6: But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
iwillgonow: Watch...
iwillgonow: Gene:2:7: And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
iwillgonow: Did He form man after the seventh day?????? NO
iwillgonow: This is a reflection of the sixth day!
iwillgonow: SEEE????
iwillgonow: This is speaking of the sixth day, like a reflection on it.
iwillgonow: Because what it said already happened, it cannot happen again after the seventh day.
psycho314t: yeah, i do see..
iwillgonow: You get it?
iwillgonow: Then follow this more!:
iwillgonow: Gene:2:8: And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
iwillgonow: [He did that on the sixth day!]
iwillgonow: Gene:2:9: And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
iwillgonow: [that also happened earlier!]
iwillgonow: Gene:2:10: And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
psycho314t: yup..
iwillgonow: [earlier]
iwillgonow: Gene:2:15: And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
iwillgonow: [happened on the sixth day]
iwillgonow: Gene:2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gene:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
iwillgonow: [happened on the sixth day, or else he would of gone who knows how long without the proper warning!]
iwillgonow: Gene:2:18: And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
iwillgonow: [JENNIFER, THE SIXTH DAY STILL!!!]
psycho314t: heh, YES, I SEE!!
iwillgonow: Gene:2:19: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gene:2:20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
iwillgonow: [sixth day]
iwillgonow: Gene:2:21: And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gene:2:22: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
psycho314t: yup..
psycho314t: sixth day..
iwillgonow: and so, women was made on the sixth day!
iwillgonow: Amazing!
psycho314t: during creation..
psycho314t: same day as man..
iwillgonow: It was just mentioned later, but it was still done on the sixth day.
iwillgonow: Wow, I didn't see that.
iwillgonow: Well, that is good to know, but Adam was still made before Eve, and the ranking stands.
psycho314t: yeah.. which still shoots the theory of equality another notch down
iwillgonow: The case for equality is suffering much.
psycho314t: what about... its in galations, lemme find it..
psycho314t: 3:28.. talks about equality in christianity
iwillgonow: Gala:3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
psycho314t: yeah.. what do u think about that one?
iwillgonow: And Paul preaches that women are to be subserviant to men in matters of religion. A paradox.
iwillgonow: Also, Jesus says that "salvation is of the Jews," so this is really stupifying.
iwillgonow: But it all works, we just don't understand, and that is the faith we must have.