zianna / lordswarrior29
10/30/02
lordswarrior29: good morning just wanted to know if you read my study yet? if so any comments?
iwillgonow: Actually, I've been waiting for your study expectantly, but my email inbox is still empty. Did you send it to iwillgonow@reason-together.net ?
lordswarrior29: yes i guess i will resend it 
iwillgonow: Great. I should receive a warning that it has come in as soon as you do.
lordswarrior29: just sent it
iwillgonow: That attempt to directly send me the file resulted in an error: "Lordswarrior29 may be behind a firewall."
lordswarrior29: 
lordswarrior29: just sent thru email
iwillgonow: iwillgonow@reason-together.net
iwillgonow: Right?
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: Then the problem must reside with me. I am not receiving it.
lordswarrior29: oh do u have another address?
iwillgonow: iwillgonow@yahoo.com
lordswarrior29: ok then i just tried that one...
iwillgonow: Worked.
lordswarrior29: cool
iwillgonow: What kind of file is a .wpd file?
lordswarrior29: word perfect
lordswarrior29: can u open it?
iwillgonow: Apparently not. I'll transfer it to another computer that can, later today, and read it there.
lordswarrior29: thats ok i will try a different way see if this works..
lordswarrior29: this should open...
iwillgonow: Right in the browser, good deal.
iwillgonow: Have you been to our website? I'm assuming this is how you found me.
iwillgonow: The first thing I notice is that the distinction you are making between what it means to be a "father" and a "pastor" isn't literally defined in any of these verses you quote. The word "father" is absent in total. Paul isn't calling himself a father, or one of the fathers, or referencing himself to be a "father" in any way by the use of that word. You can infer his actions were fatherly, but to call him that word is something I would not do, for we "call no man [our] father upon the earth: for one is [our] Father, which is in heaven." Math:23:9
lordswarrior29: yes but im meaning father in the Lord, as i believe Paul was by that verse...
iwillgonow: "Father in the Lord?" Well, when I hear that, it makes me think of the Catholic pope, who seeks to be the Father here on earth. The attributes you define by the verses you quote are not solely regulated to a "fatherly" figure. Jesus sent out Paul as a sheperd to his flock, not as a father figure.
lordswarrior29: yes ok shephard or elder of the flock yes i agree thats then the same to me and thats what i mean..
lordswarrior29: I'm just trying to make a clear distiction between a pastor and a shephard...
iwillgonow: Your points are valid. Keep the study, but take away the emphasis on the word "father" and instead make it a comparison/contrast between pastors or leaders of the Body of Christ, and those who are false sheperds, because it almost looks to me that this paper makes "pastor" out to be the bad guy and "father" out to be the good guy.
lordswarrior29: right ok cool... i have another one.. k?
iwillgonow: Send away.
lordswarrior29: awesome..
iwillgonow: Ah, you studied on predestination/free-will...difficult study, this one.
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: IF he has chosen you before the foundation of the world then you are holy and blameless before him in love. (Eph 1:4)
iwillgonow: Ephe:1:4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
iwillgonow: That we *should* be. Let me read this thing through, then we'll talk once I see what your viewpoint is.
lordswarrior29: sure leave me a message because i have to go to work.. and i will send another one that goes into more depth about being blameless..
iwillgonow: Did you take a particular stance in this paper for predestination or free will?
lordswarrior29: i think u will tell by the end...
lordswarrior29: yes..
iwillgonow: Actually I just went through it to the closing paragraph, and it stresses repentence and choosing to serve God. Those, especially the last, do not merge with predestination.
lordswarrior29: its best to just go through the whole thing...
iwillgonow: Valid points throughout again. I'll have to look at it more closely and then we'll discuss when we next meet.
lordswarrior29: great...
iwillgonow: Until then.
10/31/02
lordswarrior29: gm did u get a chance to go through my studies?
iwillgonow: Yes, the first one.
iwillgonow: Let me pull it up and we'll talk about it.
iwillgonow: The "father or pastor" one we've finished. The "have you been chosen by God" is the one to talk about.
lordswarrior29: right
iwillgonow: What still surprises me is that I cannot definitely discern what your stance is on predestination vs. free will. It makes me wonder if anyone else will be able to figure it out either.
iwillgonow: But sometimes it's better that way, if you can understand.
lordswarrior29: the bible doesn't teach that we have free will but that God chose us and we need to chose whom we will serve to have evidence that we are chosen of him...
lordswarrior29: meaning God or satan (whom we will serve)
lordswarrior29: thats why Paul says many times to examine ourselves, judge ourselves to see IF we be in the faith...
iwillgonow: Any choice in the matter equals free will. You cannot have a choice, and not have free will, otherwise what good would a choice be if you cannot choose it? We can choose to obey, or to fall away. We can choose this day whom we will serve. We can choose to sin.
iwillgonow: But, this is the catch you have caught onto:
lordswarrior29: he gives us the power to chose him if we are his..
iwillgonow: The Holy Spirit must call you to repentence, for "NO MAN SEEKETH THE LORD."
lordswarrior29: thy people will be willing in the day of thy calling..
lordswarrior29: yes but no man came come to the Father UNLESS he draws them...
iwillgonow: So you must be called, and many are called, but few are chosen. Few choose to live the life in Christ Jesus that allows them to be part of the eternal inheritance.
lordswarrior29: yes amen
lordswarrior29: its both tho
iwillgonow: So in your study, you have it, but it is so hard to explain and to show in a short and simple way that few, if any, will make those important understandings.
iwillgonow: We have free will. Period.
iwillgonow: You will not see salvation unless God calls you. Period.
iwillgonow: There must be both.
lordswarrior29: thats why they need to search the scriptures for themselves
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: Very good, Lordswarrior29. Most will simply side on one side of the arguement or the other and deny the plain scripture that testifies to each as a tandem, or necessary equal part, of salvation.
lordswarrior29: i make it very clear on my studies that unless people are to study for themselves they will be destroyed..
lordswarrior29: hey thanks my name is zianna :)
iwillgonow: Good to meet you Zianna. I am Jacob.
lordswarrior29: awesome its so refreshing to actually speak with someone else who believes the same!
iwillgonow: Rare, isn't it.
lordswarrior29: not to many around like that..
lordswarrior29: where r u from?
iwillgonow: There are a few more I keep in contact with over the Internet who've found me through the website. I assume you found me from there as well?
iwillgonow: I'm in Texas in the United States.
lordswarrior29: yes i did.. im in california
iwillgonow: By a chain, first meeting one person, who then knows another, who knows another, and on and on, I've met several fellow believers online.
iwillgonow: The Body of Christ is scattered across the globe at this time.
lordswarrior29: yes indeed
iwillgonow: Let's see if you understand the true answer in the grace vs. faith vs. works debate: which is true? 
lordswarrior29: without grace we can't be saved..
lordswarrior29: faith cant save us
iwillgonow: Anything to say of works?
lordswarrior29: if we have Gods grace we will have that evidence by our deeds
iwillgonow: Well, it was a trick question. It isn't one or the other. Like free will, there is a tandem. God must call you to Him in order for you to choose Him or not, and likewise, by faith through grace, we are saved, and works of faith that come from a believer testify of their new life that they walk in Jesus Christ, that they abide in the true vine, and produce good fruits, which ye shall know them by.
lordswarrior29: yes i agree but faith can't save u alone..
iwillgonow: What else is there besides faith to save us?
lordswarrior29: grace
iwillgonow: That's why I said faith through grace, and not faith alone. We must believe that God is, and that He is a rewarder of them that seek Him, and then He will bestow His unmerited, free grace upon you, that you cannot earn, it is a gift, and you can be saved. Those who do not believe cannot receive the grace of God, therefore faith is a must to be saved, to receive grace. God cannot force you to be saved.
lordswarrior29: ok right when u put it like that..
iwillgonow: Abraham, by faith, was saved. He believed the Messiah would come, and by the perfect merits of his atoning blood, he would wash away his sins. By faith, Abraham was saved. It was the grace of God that the Eternal One would choose to give His only begotten Son to die for those that would receive his death as atonement for their transgressions. Therefore we see, you must believe, or you cannot be saved. Once you believe, God has His grace ready to cleanse you, when you cannot earn, nor can you deserve it.
iwillgonow: Only one man deserves anything from God: Jesus Christ.
iwillgonow: Because he "earned" it. He kept the law perfectly.
iwillgonow: Unless you've done the same all your life, you must rely on the grace of God to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness, and by His grace restore you to Godliness through His Son.
lordswarrior29: right but most people dont have the true faith to save them..
iwillgonow: God's "grace" simply means He does not have to save you. You deserve to die, to be destroyed, as do all other sinners of all time. But He still, without having to, decides to save us by His Son's merits, and not our own, and therefore, it is grace.
iwillgonow: And it is free. There is no pillgrimage required, no money to pay, no works can be enough to deserve it (since once you've sinned, you cannot "earn" it through the law, because now the law condemns you to die), and that's what makes it grace.
iwillgonow: Very, very good that you can understand this, Zianna. Few do.
lordswarrior29: yes , praise God!
lordswarrior29: the Lord brought a few brothers in my life to teach us and exhort us about 3 times a week..
iwillgonow: They taught you these things?
lordswarrior29: yes and my own studies..
iwillgonow: What day is the Sabbath of the Lord, Zianna?
lordswarrior29: every day for me
lordswarrior29: gotta go take my son to school jacob i will get back to u soon..
iwillgonow: Alright, till we meet again.
lordswarrior29: so when do u think the sabbath is?
iwillgonow: The 7th day of the week, as it is written.
lordswarrior29: hey wait a minute well yes it says that but some men regard the sabbath as everyday rather than once a week..
lordswarrior29: its like going to church on sunday and that is your holy day shouldn't every day be holy?
iwillgonow: Your esteem of one day over another is every man's opinion, but only one day has been sanctified by Jesus Christ.
lordswarrior29: true
iwillgonow: This time I want you to do some reading. Let me give you the URL to my Sabbath Day study on the website:
iwillgonow: http://www.reason-together.net/
lordswarrior29: ok
iwillgonow: Then scroll down the topics list on the left and choose "Sabbath."
lordswarrior29: im there
iwillgonow: It should be fairly comprehensive, and cover many of the common arguements for all the common positions.
lordswarrior29: ok great
iwillgonow: As you go through it, feel free to keep me in step with any questions that you may have.
lordswarrior29: k
lordswarrior29: so u were brought up christian?
iwillgonow: Raised a Seventh-Day Adventist, but never actually sat down and studied why I kept the 7th Day Sabbath until when this portion you're reading was written.
lordswarrior29: so u dont believe u should leave your house on saturday?
iwillgonow: No. I don't believe my wife should sleep outside of my house when she is ovulating, either. Some things had their time in history, and do not apply any longer, and some things can be done at our discretion, but it must be excersized in holiness, similar to the "ox in the ditch" situation, where it's not sin to save it, but just how often do you think an ox falls in the ditch?
lordswarrior29: k
lordswarrior29: do u believe that Jesus Christ IS the sabbath?
iwillgonow: He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is not a period of time.
lordswarrior29: he IS the christian rest
iwillgonow: The Sabbath is a shadow that has not yet reached anti-typical fulfillment, and is therefore still validly to be observed.
iwillgonow: We don't sacrifice animals to God any more because that has seen it's fulfillment in complete by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, yes?
iwillgonow: The Sabbath has not come to fulfillment.
lordswarrior29: so we would be disobeying the 4th commandment if we kept sunday in stead of sat?
iwillgonow: Yes. Did he specify a certain day of the week out of randomness? There is a completely intentional reason for picking the seventh day: it was his day of rest after the Creation, and it is a memorial to us, to show our alligience to the Creator, to rest as he rested, as he commanded us, to "remember" the Sabbath, to observe the day of rememberance in corrolation.
lordswarrior29: Col 2:16
iwillgonow: Yes of course, no one should judge you for your obedience to these shadows of things to come, but because no man should judge you, does that mean you are not required to be in obedience?
lordswarrior29: Let NO man judge u in meat, drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the sabbath days
lordswarrior29: rom 14:5
lordswarrior29: Heb 4
iwillgonow: Sacrificing of animals was a shadow of things to come. Heathens judged Israel as fools for their ways, but did that mean they were no longer required to observe the commandments of God?
iwillgonow: Roma:14:5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
lordswarrior29: i hope your not disobeying God by these things
iwillgonow: We covered this, and it does not explicity state that the Sabbath is not to be observed just because you like Tuesday more than Saturday. You can esteem your birthday to have a special significance, or your mother's wedding day, or your anniversary, but does that make those days supernaturally special above a normal wednesday? You can esteem them if you like, but it is a matter of opinion, not commandment.
lordswarrior29: when u judge according to the sabbath then u have have only certain judgement to come to look forward to..
iwillgonow: Jesus Christ kept the Seventh-Day Sabbath, and commanded us to "keep [his] commandments." Who do you think commanded observance of the 4th commandment on Mount Sinai?
iwillgonow: Will I be judged according to what I have been commanded to do? The Bible says Yes! Every man will be judged according to the deeds done in the body. I will be judged for violating the commandment of the Sabbath just as much as killing a man! Or lying, or any other transgression I choose to commit against the law of God.
iwillgonow: Those who observe Sunday do so without any positive commandment in the Bible whatsoever, and in strict disobedience to the 4th commandment. Those who keep any day holy at their own choosing deny the plain evidence that the seventh-day Sabbath is commanded exactly that one literal 24 hour day out of the week because it corrolates with the rest of the Creator at Creation, and shows our alligience to Him.
lordswarrior29: one day esteemes one day above another another esteemes every day alike. Rom 14:5
iwillgonow: Roma:14:5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
lordswarrior29: who do u think wrote Rom 14:5 Col 2:16 and Heb 4?
iwillgonow: Paul.
lordswarrior29: JESUS CHRIST to the children of Israel why would u bring such a great judgment of wrath upon yourself?
lordswarrior29: wilfully
iwillgonow: Take a look at this verse also along the same lines as esteeming any day one over the other:
iwillgonow: Roma:14:14: I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
iwillgonow: Do you see this as permission to eat pig flesh?
iwillgonow: Or snakes?
iwillgonow: Spiders?
iwillgonow: Does this make the unclean clean?
lordswarrior29: why would u call God a liar again GOD wrote them 2Tim 3:16
iwillgonow: 2Tim:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
lordswarrior29: what do think God will do to u if u continually call him a liar?
iwillgonow: Who calls God a liar? Every man is a liar. There is none good but God.
iwillgonow: But what do you say to that verse?
lordswarrior29: unless God makes us righteous we are going to hell
lordswarrior29: and your not saved unless he makes u rightous
iwillgonow: Stay on track, Zianna. Let's study this subject.
iwillgonow: What do you think Romans 14:14 says?
lordswarrior29: God says those that r filled with him are GOOD acts 11:24
iwillgonow: This is important. We cannot take one verse and throw away another. All scripture must be in harmony. If it appears not to be, it is our understanding that is in contradiction, not the Bible.
iwillgonow: You showed how you understood that faith through grace saved. Then surely you realize how many just read the "believe and be saved," and take that one verse and discard all obligation to be HOLY like Jesus Christ, to walk in his ways, and keep his commandments. This is the same concept, Zianna. We have to take all verses together in harmony, and cannot just say one way or the other.
iwillgonow: Build upon your good understanding of how scripture must be in agreement. One verse does not contradict another.
iwillgonow: The Bible says eating pig is wrong.
iwillgonow: The Bible also says: Roma:14:14: I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
iwillgonow: How can these two not be in contradiction to each other?
iwillgonow: We must figure it out, just like faith and grace and works of faith.
iwillgonow: It cannot just be one or the other.
iwillgonow: That is contradiction.
iwillgonow: The Bible does not contradict itself. Believe it, Zianna.
iwillgonow: If you do not, then you must believe it has errors.
iwillgonow: If the Bible has errors, we are lost.
iwillgonow: We figured out how it is not just faith, or just grace, or just works, but instead, to make all those different verses that say faith, grace, or works, they must all be together a part of salvation.
iwillgonow: And it was figured out to be "by grace, through faith, ye are saved," and works of faith follow.
iwillgonow: Now with this, we have the same situation.
iwillgonow: One verse seems to say "just faith."
iwillgonow: One verse seems to say "just grace."
iwillgonow: How do we reconcile?
iwillgonow: What is the correct understanding?
iwillgonow: Is it ok to eat pig flesh now or not?
iwillgonow: Can we keep any day holy?
iwillgonow: Do we just discard the 4th commandment?
iwillgonow: There must be a way to make it all work together, just as with the faith/works/grace situation.
iwillgonow: These "contradictions" will come up over and over again, Zianna. We have to be prepared to figure them out, and not to fall into the easy trap of just taking the stance of one verse and discarding all other verses that seem to contradict our position.
iwillgonow: When I say I keep the Seventh-Day Sabbath, I do so even after reading Romans, and Hebrews, and all the other typical verses I get brought before me each and every time I talk about this with someone who has taken one verse, and stood upon it as the truth against all other verses that seem to speak to the contrary.
iwillgonow: It always boils down to making them all work together.
iwillgonow: Let's do that now.
iwillgonow: Ok?
iwillgonow: I'm not angry, Zianna.
iwillgonow: We both spend our entire life with beliefs that many, many people hate with a passion, and they deride and ridicule us.
iwillgonow: If we disagree, that is ok. It is ok to disagree. It is not ok to let our anger make us part and go our seperate ways without making all effort to understand and study our different understandings of what is in question between us regarding the interpretation of scripture.
iwillgonow: The Holy Spirit convicts. We cannot. All we can do is share our understanding, the light we've been given, and pray the Holy Spirit leads the truth to be the "winner" in our studies between us.
iwillgonow: If our hearts and minds, and spirits are open in Jesus, we will be brought into the correct understanding of scripture by the Holy Spirit, amen?
iwillgonow: Are you still with me? I feel as though I go on and on.
lordswarrior29: i have to go to work but i am not mad at all and i like the discussion however there are some thing we need to go over..
lordswarrior29: that was the old test that says about not eating pig meat because Jesus was the sacifice for the new test and now we may eat it..
lordswarrior29: but i will get back to u if u read the study i sent does God know u then that will take care of not everyone is righteous or every man is a liar..
iwillgonow: Excellent, we'll talk when we next meet.
lordswarrior29: then get back to me because that IS the BIG issue SIN
lordswarrior29: talk to u soon my friend.. :)
11/01/02
iwillgonow: Are you there, Zianna?
iwillgonow: I'm ready to continue when you are.
lordswarrior29: im here
lordswarrior29: did u read my study?
iwillgonow: Which one?
iwillgonow: The only one I haven't gone through is "Does God know you?"
lordswarrior29: yes that one...
lordswarrior29: brb
iwillgonow: you might be standing and knocking at the door saying, Lord, Lord open the door for me; and he might say to you, I Never you:
iwillgonow: A typo there, it is missing "knew."
iwillgonow: Very good study, the points are valid. When you quoted " Jesus said, " Don’t think that I have come to send peace on earth, but rather a sword." (Matt 10:34)," I though of how others would rise up against that verse and say "but God sent Jesus to redeem the world, not condemn it! John 3:17" What do you think of that, Zianna? Who is right, you, or them? Do we have to pick between the two?
lordswarrior29: no we stick with what God says..
iwillgonow: God said both versus.
iwillgonow: both verses.
lordswarrior29: to many scriptures to prove otherwise
lordswarrior29: no when u tell the truth of his word it divides people..
iwillgonow: It only takes one scripture saying otherwise for them to stand on their ground.
lordswarrior29: and that is what it is meant to do..
lordswarrior29: no there is always at least 2 or more scriptures to harmonize
iwillgonow: What you must see, Zianna, is that there are countless verses in the Bible that one person can take and stand upon, take a certain viewpoint over, and another can take another verse and say it says completely contradictory to the first person, and they both state Scripture as their authority, saying what they believe, and not what the other person believes.
iwillgonow: And they can cite two verses, both of them, to support seemingly contradictory stances.
iwillgonow: Now what?
lordswarrior29: it not about what we believe its what the bibles says and God is not a lunatic to contradict himself
lordswarrior29: so if people contridict themselves it is because they have no understanding but confusion and we know where that comes from
lordswarrior29: usually it is they have no root of studying the scriptures and laying the foundation of repentance
iwillgonow: Do you contradict yourself when you state a belief in esteeming one day above another is ok, then you, in effect, throw out the 4th commandment of God Almighty?
iwillgonow: Can the two co-exist, or must we pick one against the other?
iwillgonow: How many things are like this, where picking one verse over another is simply wrong?
lordswarrior29: i dont contradict myself i esteem all the days the same
lordswarrior29: like i said there are NO contradictions just people with no understanding
iwillgonow: But a man can, he is at liberty to be persuaded in his own mind, to esteem one day above another. If he does this, then throws out the 4th commandment, isn't this contradiction? How do you toss out one part of the Bible because of another part of the Bible?
lordswarrior29: no we already went thru the verse which speaks of not judging a man of esteeming one day to another..
iwillgonow: And the verse says plainly that a man has the right to esteem one day above another, and you should not judge him for doing so, correct?
iwillgonow: It does not say we must esteem one day above another, it just says we can, if we are so persuaded in our own minds.
iwillgonow: That it is not wrong to do so.
iwillgonow: Now, does that contradict the 4th commandment, or not?
lordswarrior29: NO
lordswarrior29: or the word would be contradicting
iwillgonow: Exactly! How do we see how there is harmony between that verse and the 4th commandment?
iwillgonow: How can a man keep the Sabbath of the Lord God as commanded by the 4th commandment, and be able to esteem one day above another, if he is so persuaded in his own mind?
lordswarrior29: easy
iwillgonow: Either the esteeming of days does not include the Holy Days of God, they are exempt, or the esteeming of days is as I said earlier, that being birthdays, holidays, wedding days, anniversaries, etc., or it could be that "esteeming" a day over another does not have anything to do with what day of the week is dedicated to worshipping and remembering God, but with something else, like having a belief in a day being supernaturally "better," or special than the others.
iwillgonow: Believing any of these makes the two verses co-exist peacefully, in harmony with each other.
iwillgonow: Believing the Sabbath is at your discretion, to be whenever you desire, puts the two verses at odds with each other.
iwillgonow: I personally don't believe my wedding anniversary day is supernaturally special, over another day. Some may believe it, and that is their choice, and it is ok, as it is written.
iwillgonow: If they persuade themselves in their own minds that wedding anniversary days are special days, then ok, they can.
iwillgonow: It's not wrong to do so, but I don't have to.
iwillgonow: What do you think?
lordswarrior29: well i think your wedding day should be special and celebrated.. doesnt your wife think so?
iwillgonow: She probably does. While I feel our wedding is special, the day at which we were married carries no supernatural significance to me whatsoever. It was just another day like any other day. To her, the sky was falling, if you know what I mean. If it means much to you, be convinced in your own mind it is special, and you have the right to do so, as do I to consider it a day equal to a "normal" day.
lordswarrior29: ok then
iwillgonow: Understanding the verse like that allows you to keep the Sabbath of the 4th commandment, and still reserve the choice to esteem one day above another, if you so choose.
iwillgonow: We know, we have got to believe that Paul didn't just toss out the Sabbath and all other shadows of things to come without their coming into complete fulfillment. God does not cast aside a "type" until it has come to anti-typical fulfillment. It just does not happen.
lordswarrior29: man Jacob u sure keep on bringing up the sabbath alot... anything else? do u believe that God hates?
iwillgonow: I keep on the subject at hand that we are studying together until we are finished studying it, Zianna.
lordswarrior29: ok i think were donetho..
iwillgonow: The Sabbath is worthy of our attention, and you haven't spoken whether or not you agree with what I am presenting to you. Do you have a response for these things, or do you agree?
lordswarrior29: well before i couldn't tell if u were stuck in your thinking about it and i think now you are not stck
lordswarrior29: stuck
lordswarrior29: meaning u just have to celebrate just one day
iwillgonow: I have complete harmony between the fourth commandment, and the freedom to esteem one day above another, if I so choose. If you do as well, then that means you believe in keeping the fourth commandment. Is that what you are saying you believe?
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: So all this time you kept the Sabbath, and led me on to see if I could substantiate my stance Biblically???
iwillgonow: If so you had me going there, quite good I must say.
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: Very good then. Did you see anything in this test that I should improve upon, more verses I could quote to set a greater foundation for keeping the Sabbath in the face of that commonly quoted verse "against" it?
lordswarrior29: i would have to think about it but i dont thinks so
iwillgonow: Now, were you leading me on about hell, or do you really believe hell is a literally place where the lost are tortured for eternity?
iwillgonow: *is a literal place*
lordswarrior29: definately not
lordswarrior29: yes hell is very real
iwillgonow: Then we do have something to talk about.
lordswarrior29: ok then
lordswarrior29: there are so many scriptures that talk about hell
lordswarrior29: what do believe about hell?
iwillgonow: The literal translation of the word rendered as "hell" in the King James Bible is "the pit, the grave," and a very few times it is something equal to darkness.
iwillgonow: And yes, that word is in the Bible a lot.
lordswarrior29: weeping and knashing of teeth
lordswarrior29: cast into the fire
iwillgonow: Yes indeed.
iwillgonow: The study I did on hell on the website is large, and monumental to my life, because I struggled with the concept of hell for a long, long time, most of my life.
lordswarrior29: so u dont believe there is a hell
iwillgonow: The greatest commentary on the subject that helped me in my studies greatly was here:
iwillgonow: John:3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
iwillgonow: Oops, wrong thing.
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/hell.html
iwillgonow: There we go.
iwillgonow: No, I do not believe in a literal place called hell where the lost suffer for eternity.
iwillgonow: "In the New Testament the word hell is translated from the Greek words hades, ten times, ge-enna, eleven times, and from tartaroo just once."
iwillgonow: "The word hades is the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew word sheol, and for the English word grave. In every instance it means the grave."
lordswarrior29: well i would like to chat on it since i havent studied it personally but i know that we need to have a fear of the Lord which is dread, terror strongs # 5401
lordswarrior29: r u still a 7th day adventist
lordswarrior29: so why would we need that?
iwillgonow: Yes indeed, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I am not an SDA, have not been for half a decade.
lordswarrior29: if there isnt a hell?
lordswarrior29: then what r u?
iwillgonow: You can fear the final judgement of God on "judgement day," not to mention the inevitable truth of your eternal loss of paradise, should you choose to be an enemy of the Lord.
lordswarrior29: what sciptures do u have that there is no hell
iwillgonow: I have been "the Bible and the Bible alone" since then. No organizational membership to a denomination of stone and wood.
iwillgonow: Hell exists.
iwillgonow: Just not how it has been taught in popular Christianity.
lordswarrior29: what do u mean then?
iwillgonow: It is literally "the grave." Hell is the grave, the place in the earth where your body is burried when you die.
iwillgonow: How can someobody believe hell doesn't exist? It's all over the Bible!
lordswarrior29: then what do believe then?
iwillgonow: Believe the Bible. From the research you'll see in this massive, massive study compiled on the biblestudy.com website, it will be evident that hell is the grave, and once God judges and destroys the wicked at the end of time, they die, just as He said they will, and to die is to not exist, it is the opposite of life.
lordswarrior29: either heaven or hell to be tormented eternally
iwillgonow: "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."—Psalm 37:20.
lordswarrior29: can u just say what u mean bottom line please
iwillgonow: The issue with the fire being "unquenchable" and other things that make it seem like it will be an eternal burning are also answered in this study.
lordswarrior29: the bible is clear on people perishing for not obeying the truth, disobedience, etc and that hell is forever and day and nite torment forever now do u agree or disagree?
iwillgonow: I do not believe in hell as a literal place, wherever popular Christianity puts it, either in the center of the earth, or in an alternate dimension. I believe hell is the grave, your grave.
lordswarrior29: oh our hell is here on earth then?
iwillgonow: The Bible does not say hell is forever. It says the fire that burns the wicked is unquenchable.
iwillgonow: "For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been."—Obadiah 1 :16.
iwillgonow: You sound as if you have to go. We'll discuss this next time, tomorrow hopefully.
lordswarrior29: well im speaking of the wicked burning in hell forever
lordswarrior29: sure
iwillgonow: I'll see you then.
lordswarrior29: k
iwillgonow: I'll look at that email now.
lordswarrior29: ok great
lordswarrior29: do u think your sin will be burned out of you instead of u going to hell?
iwillgonow: You're not leaving? If you are staying, let us continue.
lordswarrior29: can u answer that question please..
iwillgonow: The fire of God is perfectly consuming and cleansing, which is exactly why He chose that as the method to destroy the world and the wicked (because it would cleanse them both completely, and erradicate them).
lordswarrior29: r u reading the study?
iwillgonow: Yes, I already have a point to respond to, your usage of Revelation 14:11.
lordswarrior29: what about the worm (your soul) never dies?
lordswarrior29: not annaliated everlasting torment
iwillgonow: You mean this verse?
iwillgonow: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: for it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."—Mark 9:43-44.
lordswarrior29: eternal judgment
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: Do not hastily draw the conclusion, that this means that the fire will burn through all eternity.—No, it has a far different meaning. In the days of Jeremiah, God warned Jerusalem against their sins, and the consequences which would follow their disobedience in these words:
iwillgonow: "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."—Jer. 17:27.
iwillgonow: From this text we can certainly learn what God meant by "unquenchable fire.' The Jews did not obey, and the fire was kindled as promised.
iwillgonow: Now remembering that this was to be "unquenchable fire" read the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy in the verses which follow:
iwillgonow: "And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall Of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire. and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof. And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill threescore and ten years."—2 Chronicles 36:19-21
iwillgonow: Jerusalem was destroyed with unquenchable fire. The fire consumed all there was to consume. It was not quenched, but went out of its own accord. Less than a century after this, Jerusalem was rebuilt, and a new temple was erected. Question:—What does the Bible mean by "unquenchable fire?" Answer:—A fire that will utterly destroy and not be quenched, but that will burn all that can be burned and go out for lack of fuel.
iwillgonow: That is the answer to the unquenchable fire.
lordswarrior29: how about the ones spoken by Jesyus himself?
iwillgonow: You mean this?
iwillgonow: Christ, in using the word ge-enna, which is translated hell, pointed them to the valley of Hinnom as an illustration of the punishment of the wicked. In this valley complete destruction was going on. What the flames left the worm consumed, hence the expression "their worm dieth not." Christ refers here to the worms that would consume the dead bodies, and is probably quoting from the prophecy of Isaiah where we find these words:—
iwillgonow: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." —Isaiah 66:24
iwillgonow: Reference is made, as the reader can see, to the worms consuming the carcasses (dead bodies) and to the fires which assist in the destruction.
iwillgonow: So then, what does the text prove ? Just this:—Utter destruction. The fire will consume and the worms devour, until, as Obadiah says:— "They shall be as though they had not been."
lordswarrior29: worms our souls in context
lordswarrior29: redeem the time
iwillgonow: I've never seen anyone claim the worms to be our souls.
iwillgonow: And redemption is past at this point, there can be no redemption. The judgement is over, and it is final.
lordswarrior29: well we have to agree to disagree Jacob it seems that your not willing to look at other scriptures.. have u been delivered from your sins?
iwillgonow: I'm willing to look at all scriptures, and have not even hinted otherwise.
iwillgonow: Work through this study with me. Can you refute what I have posted so far?
lordswarrior29: we need to change the subject because i havent studied enough
lordswarrior29: did u read this studty i just sent
iwillgonow: I got through "The Winepress" to your usage of Revelation 14:11, and that is where you messaged me.
lordswarrior29: oh did u finish it?
iwillgonow: No, that is the second paragraph.
lordswarrior29: oh ok finish it...
iwillgonow: Out side the city is the winepress where the blood will flow (14:20):– THIS is the great wrath of GOD: the WINEPRESS (14:19)
iwillgonow: What book are these quoted verses from?
lordswarrior29: rev
lordswarrior29: im sorry i gotta go now we will continue later
iwillgonow: I'll see you later.
lordswarrior29: k
11/02/02
iwillgonow: Are you there?
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: Great. Today would be a good time to go through the article on the biblestudy.com website.
lordswarrior29: which article was that?
iwillgonow: http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/hell.html
iwillgonow: The one over hell that we didn't cover yesterday.
lordswarrior29: oh on hell?
iwillgonow: I'm ready when you are.
lordswarrior29: ok did u go over the scriptures in the study i sent u?
iwillgonow: I finished your winepress study. Valid points, but I don't know exactly what the winepress is if it has a literal fulfillment.
iwillgonow: Could be like "the cup of his indignation," which isn't a literal thing, instead, it represents the judgements of wrath to be poured out in the last days.
iwillgonow: There won't be a giant cup in the sky floating around, that sort of thing.
lordswarrior29: ok look Jacob there is no reason for me to debate hell as being a place if God over truth has NOT shown it to you i can debate all day long and it wouldnt matter.. so i dont have the time to waste on debating obvious issues as this, i am trying to spend my time studying his word..
lordswarrior29: bottom line here i am willing to chat about remission of sins because it seems to me u have not been delivered from sins bondage because of a recent statement u have made...
iwillgonow: Who said God hasn't shown it to me? You think I'm making everything I've said up? All those Bible verses are make-believe?
lordswarrior29: u think that every man IS a liar and clearly that is not the case for those whom God has chosen because he has delivered them FROM sin, satan, and this evil world..
lordswarrior29: that IS the bottom line...
lordswarrior29: not heaven or hell
iwillgonow: Hold on a second and I'll post the verse I was referring to.
iwillgonow: Roma:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
lordswarrior29: yes so?
lordswarrior29: what is your point?
iwillgonow: When I said every man was a liar, I was quoting that verse, nothing more.
lordswarrior29: ok Jacob im not into game playing u like to dance around with the scriptures, I don't.. they are very dogmatic and direct
lordswarrior29: u either have been delievered from sins dominion or u havent.. which is it
lordswarrior29: basically what is your gospel message to the unbeliever?
lordswarrior29: how can u be saved?
iwillgonow: Zianna, if you'd like to talk about another subject, you can just tell me so, instead of attacking me in an effort to make me into a bad guy because you don't want to talk about hell. The only reason I haven't been completely clear about hell is because it is a difficult study, and we haven't gotten into it yet. You want to talk about how to be saved? Fine by me, but you don't have to insult me in order to change the subject, do you understand?
lordswarrior29: i am not insulting u Jacob, God says the wounds of a true friend r faithful.. to actually love someone in the Lord is to tell them the truth...
lordswarrior29: i am not a candy coater in other words to tell someone what they want to hear u must tell them what they need to hear if u really care..
lordswarrior29: u dont forsake the truth for unity..
iwillgonow: You think telling me I am playing games is what I need to hear? Even if I was, you should use scripture to rebuke my bad points of doctrine, not say "lordswarrior29: ok Jacob im not into game playing u like to dance around with the scriptures."
lordswarrior29: ok sorry about that... i did just give u 2 tho
lordswarrior29: wounds of a friend
iwillgonow: Some people disagree with me and they are outright wrong and completely in denial, but do I tell them "you're in denial, and you're crazy, and stop playing games?" No, of course not, this sends them into the defensive and they discard all my truth because I've lit the fire of hatred and closed their ears. Be gentle as a dove, yet wise as a serpent, as your Master told you to be. Suffer long, and speak the truth in scripture, and if they cannot deny it, perhaps they will accept it.
lordswarrior29: sometimes i dont know the address of the certain scriptures..
lordswarrior29: that is only with people willing to hear the truth not with people who go against them tho..
lordswarrior29: in fact God sayd anyone who professes to know him and is a railer rebuke them and expose them
iwillgonow: People who are not willing to hear the truth won't be saved by being told they are idiots. That just makes them angry.
iwillgonow: You see that in your life? Ever gotten angry with an unbeliever and totally ruined your influence by your threats of holy indignation and rebukes?
iwillgonow: I have, which is why when I do not agree with someone else, I do not resort to threats of hellfire and brimstone, and rebukes on their ignorance/blindness/idiocy/etc. Instead of just blowing the chance to get some truth through to them, I speak kind words in love, as Jesus told me to do, and it oftentimes makes a difference when no difference would have been made otherwise.
iwillgonow: I'm asking you to consider doing the same.
lordswarrior29: no God said the message of salvation is made to be offensive to most. obviously because they will go to hell (which u dont believein) if they dont repent (meaning to be willing to forsake ALL and everything to follow after him, so yes alot get angry with that testimony just like God said..
iwillgonow: There is a time for rebuking, and a time for words spoken in kindness and love. The Holy Spirit, hopefully, leads you in which words you should speak, when they are timely to do so. Always blasting an offensive message will not be the best way, don't you agree?
lordswarrior29: God sees sin as exceedingly sinful and he HATES all workers of iniquity so we need to let people know that after they won't receive the truth tho...
lordswarrior29: of course
iwillgonow: Was not Jesus a subtle teacher when he questioned the leaders of the temple as a youth?
iwillgonow: Had he been brash, they would have killed him, because he was not equal with the learned, old men, and for a youth to TEACH an elder is blasphemy!
iwillgonow: Recognize within yourself if more good would be done with me this day if you cursed me as a child of the devil and left, or if you stayed and studied scripture with me, and we reasoned together, to see whether or not these things be so, as it is written.
lordswarrior29: i havent cursed u tho and havent left either..
iwillgonow: Sure did sound like you were close to tossing me aside as a "player of games, unwilling to hear the sharp, pointed truth of the Word of God."
lordswarrior29: thats the way u heard it why am i still here? u think i cant handle the word of God?
iwillgonow: What in that sentence says that you can't handle the Word of God?
lordswarrior29: u said im unwilling to hear the word which IS false
lordswarrior29: i study it always why would i be unwilling to hear it?
iwillgonow: No, it says you were close to tossing ME aside as the player of games, ME being unwilling to hear the word.
lordswarrior29: player meaning not being bottom line on the scriptures..
iwillgonow: Right, and that is what you accused ME of, not the other way around.
lordswarrior29: when we speak it must be clear so people can understand it simply.
lordswarrior29: ok any way what is your message of salvation to the unbeliever?
iwillgonow: I try my best to make things as clear and simple as possible.
lordswarrior29: 
iwillgonow: Repent, forsake your sins, turn away from wickedness, pray for forgiveness by the blood of Jesus, and believe. That's quite a shortened version of it, easy and simple.
lordswarrior29: what does repent mean to u?
iwillgonow: Be sorry for what you have done, and desire to change.
iwillgonow: Are you looking up verses to respond?
lordswarrior29: so what is the action that happens when u are saved is it instantly?
iwillgonow: No, being "saved" is the turning point, the deciding moment to change your life from the old way, to a new and living way. From that point on, the journey starts, the walk with Christ begins, and the continual improvement of character to perfection starts. You have to grow in Christ, learning and praying and casting aside more and more of self to follow in your Master's footsteps.
lordswarrior29: ok but what is the point of salvation?
lordswarrior29: is it a sinners prayer?
lordswarrior29: accepting him?
lordswarrior29: where does it happen?
iwillgonow: I would say so. I can't see someone having that turning point in their life without actually communicating to God. Can happen anywhere on this earth, location is not an issue.
lordswarrior29: your still not being clear again at which point...
lordswarrior29: what is the bootomline?
lordswarrior29: when does salvation occur?
lordswarrior29: what do u have to do?
iwillgonow: I have no idea at what point in a person's life they choose to be "saved." It could occur anytime, at almost any age, anywhere.
lordswarrior29: we must have an answer for every man that they can understand and chose..
iwillgonow: I already said that you have to repent, ask forgiveness by the blood of Jesus, and believe, that's what you have to do.
lordswarrior29: so after u do that r u saved immediately?
iwillgonow: You are saved immediately. Your sins are forgiven, and your name is registered in the book of life. Can you sin after dedicating your life to Jesus? Oh yes, you can, and then it must be forgiven, and your record must be cleansed again.
lordswarrior29: asking for forgiveness is worldly sorrow repentance is godly sorrow
iwillgonow: When I repent of a sin I have committed against God, I tell God I am sorry. That is included in my repentence.
lordswarrior29: u are not saved immediatley through some prayer.. what scripture says that? its also not immediate, we must labor with the Lord to lay the foundation of repentance (Heb 6:1) which is also the circumcision made without hands (operation of God without anesthesia) which takes time
iwillgonow: Do you believe when you ask God to forgive your sins, that He forgives your sins, or not?
lordswarrior29: NO we dont ask for forgiveness no scripture for that one just repent only
lordswarrior29: if u ask for forgiveness then u keep doing the same sins continually if u repent u dont continue in them..
iwillgonow: Ok, let's not let this become an issue of semantics. When you pray to God and repent of your sins, do you believe that God makes you "white as snow," that He cleanses you from all unrighteousness, or not?
lordswarrior29: huge difference that is the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow
lordswarrior29: depends on asking for forgiveness or true repentance like i said there IS a big difference worldly sorrow oh i wish i wouldnt do it anymore but I cant stop in context) or godly sorrow where u dont continue in the same sins over and over because Jesus IS not the minister of leading u to continue in sins
iwillgonow: I'm trying to ask you a simple question, not to twist and confuse you. Your record in heaven must be clean. When you ask God to clean your record in heaven, do you believe He does so, or not?
iwillgonow: Still here?
iwillgonow: Zianna?
iwillgonow: Let me know when you return.
lordswarrior29: it doesnt look like u want to keep with the subject of repentance vs. forgiveness
iwillgonow: Honestly, I've never seen a demarcation made between repetence and forgiveness like you're making. Thinking it just might be a case of "we're saying the same thing, but using different words," I wanted to go ahead and get my point across.
lordswarrior29: well this is a big point because u are saying that asking for forgiveness is the same as repentance when the bible is clear about what they mean
lordswarrior29: your not clear yet..
iwillgonow: Alright, let's study into this difference between repetence and forgiveness, if you like.
iwillgonow: Acts:5:31: Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
iwillgonow: Jesus gives both repentence and forgiveness?
lordswarrior29: what did Jeus save us from?
iwillgonow: He saves us from being dead in our sins.
lordswarrior29: dead?
lordswarrior29: then what?
lordswarrior29: scratch out then what
lordswarrior29: dead?
iwillgonow: Ephe:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
lordswarrior29: i thought we are supposed to be dead to sins
iwillgonow: He saves us from being dead in our sins, as the verse above shows. He quickens us, brings us "back to life," or out of sin.
lordswarrior29: worldly sorrow which is asking for forgiveness leads to death 2Cor 7:10
iwillgonow: 2Cor:7:10: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
lordswarrior29: godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation which there r 7 attributes to this:
iwillgonow: That verse defines two different types of sorrow (godly sorrow and the sorrow of the world), not two different types of repentence.
lordswarrior29: 1. a carefulness to sin 2.clearing of yourselves not to sin 3. indignation against hyour sins
lordswarrior29: 4. an actual FEAR to sin 5. vehement desire not to sin
lordswarrior29: 6. zeal not to sin 7. taking revenge against your sins
iwillgonow: 2Cor:7:11: For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
iwillgonow: That is the verse you are paraphrasing.
lordswarrior29: IF you are clear in these things then u have layed the foundation of repentance
lordswarrior29: can u say u are clear in these things?
iwillgonow: What is the verse that corrolates 2Cor 7:11 with the foundation for repentence?
iwillgonow: This is the only verse I could find with foundation and repentence in it:
iwillgonow: Hebr:6:1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
lordswarrior29: Heb 6:1
iwillgonow: Does that verse say "not laying?"
lordswarrior29: because we need to lay it before we can on
lordswarrior29: go on
lordswarrior29: if God permits
lordswarrior29: r u clear in these matters?
iwillgonow: I'm not clear on how it says "not laying again the foundation of repentence," and you see that as a positive commandment to "lay it."
lordswarrior29: well sure..
lordswarrior29: how else can the Lord remove our sins?
lordswarrior29: by just a prayer?
iwillgonow: I agree there's no way you can be forgiven of your sins if you pray to be forgiven of your sins but you do not repent of those sins.
iwillgonow: That would be like saying you're sorry you are hitting your brother as you continue to hit him.
iwillgonow: You're not sorry, you cannot be forgiven.
lordswarrior29: thats not repentance thats asking for forgiveness
iwillgonow: Ephe:1:7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
iwillgonow: Colo:1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
lordswarrior29: do u know what frogiveness means?
iwillgonow: I can look up the dictionary definition if you like.
lordswarrior29: deliverance from strongs #859
lordswarrior29: u cant have forgiveness unless u have deliverance from sins
iwillgonow: You take the Strongs to interpret the original word meaning for what is rendered in the Bible as "forgiveness" to mean deliverance?
lordswarrior29: of course u dont?
iwillgonow: I'm looking at the translation of the word as we speak.
lordswarrior29: that is the original meaning
lordswarrior29: thats why we need to use the strongs
iwillgonow: The Strongs renders the word "hell" in the Bible as "the grave." Do you take it to mean the grave, or a massive labyrinth where the dead are tortured in hellfire for all eternity?
iwillgonow: 859 aphesis {af'-es-is}
from 863; TDNT - 1:509,88; n f
AV - remission 9, forgiveness 6, deliverance 1, liberty 1; 17
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
iwillgonow: Forgiveness means remission.
iwillgonow: Or pardon.
iwillgonow: It is only rendered as deliverance once, versus the 9 for remission.
iwillgonow: So by the Strongs, we see forgiveness means what we understand it to mean: remission, a forgetting of sins as if they had never happened, as it is written, "cast into the depths of the sea."
iwillgonow: Acts:5:31: Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
iwillgonow: Jesus gives us the ability to be sorry, Godly sorry for our sins, and to ask and be forgiven of them, to be cleansed as if they never were committed.
lordswarrior29: oh i see so just because it says deliverance once its not valid u would only say that if u havent been delivered yourself...
iwillgonow: The one rendering of "deliverance" is Luke 4:18, and it makes perfect sense. I do not disagree with that verse.
iwillgonow: Luke:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
lordswarrior29: do u break the 10 commandments continually?
iwillgonow: Zianna, at this point I could deride you for denying the plain truth of scripture, for changing the subject every single time you can't answer the cutting truth of the verses I post, but would that do us any good?
iwillgonow: I do fail and break the Ten Commandments, but not continually. There are times I go without commiting a transgression of the moral law, but it doesn't last me very long, unfortunately. Not nearly long enough.
lordswarrior29: continually means once a month the same sin as well
iwillgonow: Really? Once a month? I've never seen that scripture.
lordswarrior29: its still continual...
lordswarrior29: isnt it?
lordswarrior29: im tring to make a point
iwillgonow: I can't say that by the Word of God once a month is continual, because I don't have a verse to back that statement up. By my own opinion, I could agree with you that once a month is continual, but I could go further and say once a year is too much.
iwillgonow: Make your point.
lordswarrior29: do u look with lust?
iwillgonow: I have.
lordswarrior29: still?
iwillgonow: I have committed many sins, but it only takes being in violation of one to have transgressed them all, as Jesus said.
lordswarrior29: do u still continue in that sin?
iwillgonow: Yes, I continue to struggle against the lusts of the flesh.
lordswarrior29: ok great at least your honest thanks for that..
lordswarrior29: ok then Jesus can deliver u from that do u believe that?
iwillgonow: Yes I do.
lordswarrior29: well then why hasnt he?
iwillgonow: Jesus "stands at the door and knock[s], and if any man open the door, he will come in, and sup with him."
iwillgonow: If he hasn't, then I haven't opened the door.
iwillgonow: But he saith in truth that he stands, knocking.
lordswarrior29: then u cannot even be saved...
iwillgonow: What do you mean?
lordswarrior29: he came to save us FROM our sins not in them..
lordswarrior29: matt 1:21
lordswarrior29: then basically if your saying your saved in sin then you are making Jesus Christ the minister of sin...
lordswarrior29: 1John 3:9
iwillgonow: Roma:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
iwillgonow: Roma:5:6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
lordswarrior29: whoever is born of God does not commit (continual) sin for his seed is in him and he CANNOT sin because he is born of God
iwillgonow: Was Paul saved?
iwillgonow: Roma:7:19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
lordswarrior29: thats was when he was unregenerate Rom 7
lordswarrior29: look at 6 and 8
lordswarrior29: so then God is a liar in 1John
iwillgonow: Roma:7:15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
lordswarrior29: that book was written so that you may know IF you have eternal life..
iwillgonow: He speaks in present tense there. This was after he was "saved."
lordswarrior29: all of Rom 7 is in a unregenerate state
lordswarrior29: then again your calling God a liar in 1John when he says u cant sin
iwillgonow: God is not a liar, Zianna. We talked earlier about not making the mistake of taking sides, one verse against another. The Bible must not disagree with itself. These things must be in harmony. It isn't an issue of "Paul versus God" here. Make these things work together, and they can, with the correct understanding. The must!
iwillgonow: *They must!*
iwillgonow: Paul goes on to state "Roma:7:17: Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
iwillgonow: So there HE, PAUL sins not, but the sin that dwelleth in him, IT is the one that does it. Perhaps that is how we must see this thing to be in harmony with your verse.
lordswarrior29: if u are saying that u continue in sin and your saved you r making Jesus the minister of sin and God also says it is impossible to renew a person unto repentance if they say they r saved in sin u must be willing to say that u are in fact not born again in sin or else u wont be delievred from your sins
lordswarrior29: he is walking after the flesh in Rom 7 and in 6 and 8 he is walking after the spirit so then he says there is NO condemnation to those who walk after the spirit but there is for the one who walks after the flesh Rom 8:1
iwillgonow: So you're saying in chapter seven he is just giving an example of what it is to walk in the flesh, instead of literally stating what he does in his flesh?
lordswarrior29: if Christ be in you your body is dead because of sin..
lordswarrior29: go read romans 8
lordswarrior29: then get back to me
iwillgonow: Roma:8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
iwillgonow: Roma:7:25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
lordswarrior29: go read all of ch 8
iwillgonow: I did.
iwillgonow: 1John:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
iwillgonow: We sin not, but IF we sin, we have an advocate?
iwillgonow: Saints can fall. Make mistakes. The saved can turn away and let the old man rise up by not killing him daily.
iwillgonow: If once we were saved, and Jesus was in us, if we could no longer choose to sin, we would no longer have free will. Free will lasts forever. If God didn't value the ability of His created beings to choose to serve Him, then this whole history of mankind would not have been allowed to occur.
iwillgonow: God let sin exist because He values choice.
iwillgonow: It is very important to Him that we choose of our own free will to serve Him out of love.
iwillgonow: Point? Once saved, you are not stripped of the ability to choose to sin. You can and some have fallen after being "saved."
lordswarrior29: ok im done your too draining u refuse to take the scriptures out of context u have not been delievred from sin and your saying your saved in them which is trampling the son of God under foot if u dont repent from this foolishness God says he is going to punish u 7 times worse than the unbeliever for naming his name while continuing in your sin Lev 26:18 and u will also be one of those professing christians that Jesus says to depart from me u worker of iniquity (those who continue in sins they can't stop doing) and will be tormented day and night for all eternity in hell and it doesnt matter what you believe...
iwillgonow: If you leave with anything from this, Zianna, I hope it is that you have seen how resorting to threats of hellfire and damnation will never save a man. God requires service out of love, not out of fear. I will be available at any time to continue to study with you.
lordswarrior29: those were Gods words not mine...
lordswarrior29: the FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge
iwillgonow: God is love.
iwillgonow: He will never accept servants who serve Him out of fear.
iwillgonow: Love is above all things.
lordswarrior29: u r refusing his words and im giving u the scriptures to show what will happen to u IF u continue in your sins while professing to know him
iwillgonow: And it is the only acceptable service to Him.
lordswarrior29: what do u do with Ps 5:5 if God is love
iwillgonow: Psal:5:5: The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
lordswarrior29: does he love the people in hell now?
iwillgonow: Roma:8:39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
lordswarrior29: if he only lkoves then he doesnt hate
iwillgonow: 2Thes:3:5: And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
lordswarrior29: yes our sin separates us from him
lordswarrior29: SIN separates
iwillgonow: Jude:1:21: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
iwillgonow: 1John:5:3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
lordswarrior29: u cant keep his commandments
iwillgonow: 1John:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
lordswarrior29: and u dont
iwillgonow: 1John:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
lordswarrior29: he hates all workers of iniquity
lordswarrior29: and u r a worker of iniquity
lordswarrior29: has he made your eyes blind? ears dull of hearing to see these truths of his word so he can heal you and save u?
lordswarrior29: well if u dont accept his word then u have been made a vessel unto dishonor fitted for destruction...
iwillgonow: The "hatred" of God is not evil, Zianna. He does not go about seeking to destroy out of evil thoughts and desires. His anger is righteous indignation, and if you have ears, may you hear this: God will destroy all unrepentent sinners out of His love for them, that they do not live forever in their suffering.
iwillgonow: God is love throughout, through and through, in all things that He does.
iwillgonow: Even in His judgement.
iwillgonow: I've taken the time to read through 4 of your complete studies. Please, go through the biblestudy.com comprehensive article on hell. If you do, from top to bottom, you will hardly be able to deny the answer to every question you've brought up.
iwillgonow: Here is the address: http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/hell.html
lordswarrior29: God did not spare the angels but cast them into hell and did not spare the oold world, but only saved 8 people what makes u think your saved? its not a numbers game
lordswarrior29: and u say there is no hell
lordswarrior29: thats a mockery of Gods word
iwillgonow: Once again, I say there is a hell, but it is the grave. I use the Strongs just as you do, and that is the translation of the word rendered as "hell" in the Bible.
iwillgonow: Psal:86:15: But thou, O Lord, [art] a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
iwillgonow: Gala:5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
iwillgonow: Ephe:4:2: With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
iwillgonow: Colo:3:12: Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
iwillgonow: 1Tim:1:16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
iwillgonow: 2Tim:4:2: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
lordswarrior29: strongs #1067 hell a place of the future punishment called Gehenna a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction
iwillgonow: The Greek word ge-enna means literally, the valley of Hinnom, and has reference to a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, which was defiled by the worship of Molock, and afterwards used as a place to burn all kinds of filth and carcasses of animals, the bodies of criminals, and refuse generally.
lordswarrior29: God is love that is why he must judge righteous judgement and those workers of iniquity to hell
iwillgonow: God is love. Therefore, all His doings are love, even His judgements. It cannot be denied.
lordswarrior29: its future punishment as well for the workers of iniquity and the ungodly
lordswarrior29: your disagreeing with that as well
iwillgonow: I do not put scripture at odds with scripture. Therefore, if I know for a fact that God is love (and I do, for it is written), and I know for a fact that God will destroy all unrepentent sinners (and I do, for it is written), then it must be that God does this in His love, out of His love, and because He loves them. Then, scripture agrees with scripture, as it must.
lordswarrior29: if he loves them why does he say he hates them as well? is he a lunatic?
iwillgonow: Ever heard the saying "Love the sinner, hate the sin?"
lordswarrior29: no scripture for that..
lordswarrior29: ps 5:5
lordswarrior29: 5:6
iwillgonow: I know that saying isn't a Bible verse, but the concept is based upon the Bible.
iwillgonow: God doesn't hate people at random, or He would be crazy.
iwillgonow: He hates sin.
lordswarrior29: he hates all workers (people) of iniquity
iwillgonow: Why? Cause they work iniquity.
iwillgonow: Not because they're people.
lordswarrior29: what do u do with that?
lordswarrior29: u said he doesnt hate people
lordswarrior29: he hates them and their sin
lordswarrior29: or he would have said i hate their sin not them
iwillgonow: Alright, but then how does God love the sinner? Why does He desire to bring them back into righteousness, to be with Him forever?
lordswarrior29: levit 26:30
lordswarrior29: abhor means extreme hatred
iwillgonow: Levi:26:30: And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
lordswarrior29: Ps 119:163
iwillgonow: Psal:119:163: I hate and abhor lying: [but] thy law do I love.
lordswarrior29: he hates them as well
lordswarrior29: just forget this its useless
lordswarrior29: u made made your own God
iwillgonow: We know for a fact God hates sin, abhors it. We know for a fact that God doesn't just go around randomly picking people and hating them for no reason whatsoever. So with those two facts, it must be so that God hates people only for their sin.
lordswarrior29: not the God of the bible
lordswarrior29: and your still in sin
lordswarrior29: so he must hate u too
iwillgonow: The point I just made is that if you believe those two facts, you come to that conclusion, and that conclusion makes the Bible agree, not contradict, and this is a sign of correct understanding of scripture.
iwillgonow: Longsuffering and brotherly love, Zianna. I'm not just spouting off blasphemy with no Biblical basis whatsoever. These points are rational, valid, scripturally-based points, and if scripture interprets scripture, is this not the truth?
iwillgonow: 1Thes:3:12: And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
iwillgonow: Ephe:4:15: But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
iwillgonow: I speak in love.
lordswarrior29: u dont have understanding because u r still in your sins
lordswarrior29: do a word study on judgment
lordswarrior29: and repentance
iwillgonow: Instead of saying that, refute the points I've made upon the scriptures I've made, and prove me wrong by the Word of God. This will do more for me than telling me I'm lost in sin, I can guarantee you that.
lordswarrior29: and sinner, vs. the righteous
lordswarrior29: i have given u plenty of scrioptures u refuse them
lordswarrior29: to your own destruction im afraid
iwillgonow: I put those you gave, which were true, with those I gave, which were true, and found harmony between them all. I will not make the mistake of putting scripture against scripture and being stuck in the belief the Bible contradicts itself.
lordswarrior29: there is no harmony u dont have understanding
lordswarrior29: u still think your saved in sin
lordswarrior29: u have no scriptures to back u with that
iwillgonow: There must be harmony between God being love, and God hating the workers of iniquity. You just cannot pick and choose which verses you want to stand upon, Zianna. The whole Bible must be a harmonious whole.
lordswarrior29: u need to do a study on hate i did
lordswarrior29: thats why i know these things because God has shown me and is delivering me from my sins
lordswarrior29: thats the bottom line anyway being delievred from sins bondage
lordswarrior29: your not
iwillgonow: Zianna, if you agree there is harmony between those two verses, but you disagree with me on how I see that harmony, that's great! Just show me how you see the harmony between them, because there must be harmony.
lordswarrior29: im done for today
lordswarrior29: i need to get back to my study
iwillgonow: Alright, study well.
iwillgonow: Zianna, may I have your permission to post our conversation to the website? I think it would be a great asset for others to learn from.
lordswarrior29: yes
iwillgonow: Thank you.
lordswarrior29: r u going to use all of it or will u just pick and choose what you want?
iwillgonow: Not one letter will be left out. It will be a perfect reproduction of our conversation. Unless you have something you would like to be left out, like your first name, for privacy's sake.
lordswarrior29: no everything is great.. can u send me the exact link to the page?
iwillgonow: The website is www.reason-together.net as I'm sure you already know. Once I post it under a new topic name in the left-hand side with all the other topics, I'll let you know what the topic name is, so you can find it.
iwillgonow: Our website cannot directly link to the topics because it is built using frames. I don't know the technical details, sorry.
lordswarrior29: k
